I'm currently in the process of converting my old integrated video/audio system to the new technologies. I have a 50 inch Samsung HD TV, a DirecTV receiver, a Playstation 3, a Playstation 2, a JVC progressive scan DVD player, wi-fi, and an old, but powerful, Sherwood digilink II Prolog receiver connected to the front, center, and back speakers. (I realize there's some redundancy here, but I like having some backups.)
Here's my simple question. In the old system I used the Sherwood switching capability to pair audio and video so that it was always handling the correct audio with each video source. However, in this case the Samsung has inputs for all of my sources and I've noticed that it also has a single audio-out plug. Can't I just wire the Samsung HD TV audio output into the amplifier and solve the whole problem with one cable? It seems almost too simple. Does anybody see a problem with this?
Maybe. On one TV I looked at recently it only passed Dolby Digital so you'd have to add analog audio output for regular stereo. And it may not do DTS. You'd really have to read the Owner's Manual for the TV to see what it sends out on that digital audio output and when to see if it would work.
Using the display as your A/V switching center is not recommended especially with HDMI. The HDMI source will be told it is being connected to a 2 channel destination and only output 2 channel. While there are ways around that none will achieve the seamless simplicity you seek. For that you need a capable A/V receiver supporting analog component at minimum.
Very interesting. So HDMI is bidirectional. In other words, the HDMI standard requires the receiver to instruct the source on what kind of audio signal it can handle and, of course, the source is required to configure its output to match. Sounds like a very complicated engineering solution, but I can see how it would eliminate problems.
After thinking this over and drawing several system wiring diagrams, I've realized the following:
(1) The high-end Sherwood Amp stays in the system because it's a significant investment and sounds great. Its only problem is, it doesn't have a clue about HDMI.
(2) I can still use the Sherwood to switch conventional audio for each component. It has a remote so this is no problem.
(3) The Samsung HD set will switch video, making selecting a video/audio source a two-step process. There might be a slight advantage here because I can imagine situations when I want to listen to music while watching a video source.
This means I'm using HDMI as a video-only link.
Here are my questions:
(1)The Playstation 3 does not have a conventional audio plug in the back. In addition to HDMI, it has LAN, Digital Out (optical), and AV multi out. Is there a way I can use one of these to connect to a conventional stereo audio plug onput?
(2) Given this, is there still a distinct advantage in using HDMI?
(3) Will there be a noticeable lip sync problem? I have noticed that when listening to sound both from the direct audio link and from the Samsung speakers, there is a small, but distinct echo effect. Obviously I have to turn the sound off on the Samsung when using this method.
1. Don't you have a digital input on the Sherwood? If not then upgrading is clearly in your interest since we now live in a digital multichannel direct delivery world; analog decoding is out.
2. You need HDMI for 1080p support and DVD upconversion.
3. You complained about an echo - that is not lip sync per say. It is due to using your TV speakers along with your HT sound system and the fact that the display has a built in audio delay for lip sync error. Lip sync error is when the sound does not match the timing of the image and sensitivity to that varies from user to user. Worry about that if you find it a problem.
I guess I don't understand. My Sherwood Dolby Surround Sound Prologic receiver has been decoding the signal just fine up until this moment. For example it decodes the DirectTV signal coming from the analog output (not HDMI) into four channel sound perfectly. I have not tested it on the Playstation 3 yet, but on everything else, I get good clean 4 channel audio. Why would everything change because I now have an HD set? As I explained, I'm not using the HD set for audio, but instead letting the Sherwood do the audio switching in parallel to the video switching of the HD set. The sound on the HD set is muted.
My Playstation 3 does not have the conventional left-right audio out, but instead has AV out which I assume I can handle with the appropriate adapter by only using the stereo part. Like my DirecTV receiver, the picture will come from HDMI which I assume is the highest quality video.
Compare say Pearl Harbor via analog encoding, digital multichannel encoded into an analog two channel matrix - decoded by your receiver, versus a direct digital bit stream where the original channels are directly decoded and sent to the speakers... you'll note a vast improvement in all areas of audio reproduction.
You're only getting Prologic analog surround sound derived from the Stereo (2 channel) analog signal. You get one center and one surround channel that are mixed in and derived from the stereo Left and Right signals. The center and surround channels are not full range. It's better than stereo - but just barely.
Digital surround (5.1, 6.1, 7.1 - Dolby Digital or DTS) means every channel is discrete and full range. You also get separate L/R surround channels plus a dedicated subwoofer channel not to mention discrete volume control of each channel.
The difference between prologic and dolby digital is like going from a black and white 13" TV to a 35" color set. DTS and the newer HD audio formats make it even more dramatic.
You can still use the Sherwood as an amp but you'll need either a receiver or processor that can decode digital audio at some point.
I appreciate all the information. Obviously I'm behind the times. But I have to say, I've never had an occasion when watching a movie when I said to myself, gee, I wish I had a little more separation between the audio channels. But the point is well taken. I need to hop down to my local dealer for a demonstration. Anyway, thanks for setting me straight.
But I have to say, I've never had an occasion when watching a movie when I said to myself, gee, I wish I had a little more separation between the audio channels.
It's more than just separation. Think about it this way - if you'd never seen a 50" HDTV picture then you'd probably think a 27" TV with Svideo looked fantastic. But once you've seen the 50" HDTV picture you'd never want to go back.
Check your local high end audio/video shop - I'm sure they have a good sound demo setup. The big box stores are set up more for Video than Audio.
I know that when a movie is made it is encoded with Dolby Stereo, and I believe that's the information that my Prologic surround sound amplifier is using. But when I looked at the spec on my Playstation 3, for example, there is no mention of Dolby Stereo encoding. I tried this out of my DirecTV signal, and it appeared to be getting rear channel information. Is the Dolby Stereo encoding being dropped, or are there newer methods that are simply enhancements? Or something else? Obviously it must be an encoding method because all systems still only have two wires to the source. If anyone wants to point me to a good technical discussion of this I'd appreciate it.
Henry - the easiest way to think of it is analog vs. digital.
Pro Logic is analog. They encode the center and surround channels into the normal L/R stereo signal. Your ProLogic receiver simply compares the left and right signals - anything that is in both channels and in phase goes to the center channel and anything in both channels but out of phase is sent to the rear surrounds. This is the only type of surround sound that can be broadcast over NTSC or on VHS tapes.
Dolby Digital and DTS (and variants) are digital. They all provide at least 6 discrete channels (no matrix processing required) of full range sound:
Left/Center/Right, LeftRear, RightRear (5) and LFE (subwoofer) (.1) giving you 5.1 channels. Some variants add one rear surround (6.1) or two (7.1).
ATSC broadcast TV uses Dolby Digital (although there is no requirement to use all 6 channels - sometimes only 2 are used but the format is still the same) while DVDs use DD or DTS. Digital sound is sent to a receiver for decoding either using HDMI or a digital audio cable (optical or coax).
On some receivers and DVD players the mfr may have chosen to output a Pro Logic analog audio stream using the stereo outputs and derived from the DD or DTS soundtrack but that is totally up to the mfr. Best way to tell is to test it like you already did - if you get rear surround and center channel from the stereo output jacks then it works. It won't sound nearly as good as a dedicated 5.1/6.1/7.1 DD or DTS but again, it's better than nothing and if you're happy with it then don't worry about it.
Thanks for the explanation. I have completed my installation and I'm happy to report that analog surround sound works on all sources including the Playstation 3. (You have to tell the Playstation what your intention is, however.) Using HDMI for video and analog surround seems to work fine no matter what the source.
I watched the beginning of "Blade Runner" on Blu-ray. The opening scene that has flying cars moving toward and away from the observer was a good test for my analog system and in my judgement the subjective direction of the sound tracked very well with the picture. The quality of the sound exceeded the theater experience to my ears, not to say that a digital sound system wouldn't be better, but I have to say I was very satisfied with the results obtained.
