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1920X1080 DLP

Started by • May 1, 2004 • 25 posts
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#1
April 27 2004 at 6:07 PM
No score for this post anon (Login originalanon)
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Looks like a 1920x1080 DLP chip is expected to be available late this year. Might give the venerable CRT RPTVs a run for their money. See the xHD3 chip down the page at:
http://www.digiupdate.com/105_DLP_RPTV. ... oc62794043

a


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Allen
(Login akirby)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 6:33 AM


Just saw the writeup on how this new xHD3 chip works for 720p and 1080p. New twist on interlaced/progressive scan.

This chip paints one half of the screen (left/right alternately) every 1/120th of a second, so you get a full screen every 1/60th of a second. For 1280 x 720 it paints 640x720 each time. For 1920x1080 it paints 960x1080 each time.

Interesting solution. Throws a new twist into the interlaced/progressive scan debate.


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Richard Fisher
(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 7:04 AM


Allen,

Digital displays do not write anything across anything, that is an anolog function of CRT. They are flash displays where the complete frame is displayed.

Can you direct me to this info you are referring to?

Thanks,

Richard F. Fisher
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - [email protected]
Factory Authorized Service
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL
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Allen
(Login akirby)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 8:59 AM


Sorry, Richard. I tend to use the term 'paint' loosely and I shouldn't.

The writeup was in the new TPV (The Perfect Vision magazine).


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Richard Fisher
(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 9:40 AM


We have been misled...

What else is new?

The new TI chips are NOT 1920X1080 but 960X1080 using the same interlace shift concept but in the horizontal plane. Very disappointing from a pure science aspect. While it does remove vertical interlace problems what others will be generated by this scheme? A moot question until we have them in our hands.

I will see if our resident equipment and technology guru Rodolpho has any input.

Richard F. Fisher
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - [email protected]
Factory Authorized Service
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL
Lumagen Scaling and Bravo D1 Dealer


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Allen
(Login akirby)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 10:24 AM


I wonder if the fact that it can do both sides of the screen in 1/60th of a second will make a difference (1/120th for each half)? With current vertical interlacing it takes 1/30th of a second, so at least this is twice as fast.

The TPV guys seemed as surprised as anybody about this disclosure - they were apparently expecting a true 1920x1080 as well.

Thank god I'm not a videophile. This stuff is technically interesting to me but doesn't really bother me from a consumer standpoint. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss.


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Richard Fisher
(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 10:32 AM


>>Thank god I'm not a videophile.

Allen, you sure know enough to be one...

The test on this display will be vertical pans rather than horizontal.


This message has been edited by mastertechtv on Apr 28, 2004 10:38 AM




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Allen
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 12:10 PM


I guess you could call me an information-phile. I just have to know how things work and why. But when it comes down to audio and video performance I'm just not that picky. I work with 2 audiophiles and they are NEVER happy - they're in a never ending quest for perfection that they'll never achieve. But that won't stop them from spending thousands of dollars trying. You reach a point where the quality really doesn't get better - it just gets different.


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Richard Fisher
(Login mastertechtv)
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 12:41 PM


>>You reach a point where the quality really doesn't get better - it just gets different.

Never thought about it that way. That is an astute observation!



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Ken - KQ6QV
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Re: 1920X1080 DLP
No score for this post April 28 2004, 6:29 PM


I
#2
What audible sound? Are saying there is a noise coming from the chip itself?
#3
No. If you construct a large mirror that moves 120 times per second, you have essentially built a speaker.
#4
Right, but this chip is only .55" square with 500,000 mirrors on it. It make no noise that I have ever heard.
#5
No, the interlace mirror is different from the chip. The interlace mirror is new for the 3-chip DLPs soon coming out. It moves the whole image right or left by 1 pixel.
#6
Now I know what you are talking about. I don't know the answer but I thought that mirror was stationary. In the example furnished by TI for the three chip version I don't see an interlace mirror.
#7
Now I know what you are talking about. I don't know the answer but I thought that mirror was stationary. In the example furnished by TI for the three chip version I don't see an interlace mirror.

How can it be stationary? It has to move to shift the picture one pixel every 1/120th of a second. That's why it's there. That's why it's called the interlace mirror. Now it only moves one pixel but it still moves.
#8
The only comment I will make is I have hard time seeing this mirror as something huge and would think it is inside the light engine cavity along with the imager.
#9
I'm still trying to find a mirror that could possibly make a noise having to do with this chip or the projection of the picture. If you go to the following TI site there is a good demo of how this all works:

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/dlp_t ... erview.asp

From there you can download a zip file that will give you a large "picture" of the various parts. If there is a mirror, other than the ones on the chip, I would like for someone to tell me where it is located.
#10
Hugh,

That is based on the old stuff. I am not finding anything about the 1920X1080 imager.

:?:
#11
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Ran across this and thought it might be of interest.

Hugh Campbell

DALLAS, April 11 /PRNewswire/ -- Texas Instruments (NYSE: TXN) (TI) today
announced that its 1920 x 1080 high-definition (HD) resolution DLP TV
technology has been fully qualified and is in production shipment to
customers. DLP TVs are expected to be the first volume 1080p TVs available on
the U.S. market, with affordable 1080p DLP TVs scheduled to be at retail as
early as July.
Manufacturers who have announced 1080p DLP TVs include LG, Mitsubishi,
Samsung, and Toshiba. Mitsubishi will publicly introduce for the first time
today 5 new models featuring 1080p DLP technology, ranging in screen size from
52" to 73", at their line show in Orlando, Florida. 1080p DLP TVs will
complement the 720p high-definition DLP TV offerings available on the market,
which total more than 75 models from more than 20 customers worldwide.
The 1080p DLP chip offers a variety of features to customers that allow
them to differentiate their TVs:
* SharpPicture(TM): Processing enhancement that works in conjunction
with SmoothPicture(TM) technology to simultaneously provide sharp, yet
smooth and seamless images.
* DynamicColor(TM): Enhances colors and contrast without impacting skin
tones, allowing for more vibrant and lifelike color reproduction.
* DynamicBlack(TM): System level solution which provides dramatic
increases in system contrast ratio and grayscale fidelity by as much
as 4x, bringing greater detail to dark scenes and images and allowing
customers to achieve contrast ratios well above 5000:1.
* DarkChip3(TM): Feature that includes architectural changes to the DLP
chip resulting in a 20 - 40% improvement in contrast over
DarkChip2(TM).

With the highly anticipated industry move to 1920 x 1080 resolution
digital capture, broadcast and playback, 1080p DLP TVs are designed to display
incredible high-definition pictures that match the full content resolution.
According to In-Stat, there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US,
up from 1.6 million in March 2004. Many HD cable and network programming
offerings have already moved to 1080 resolution, and the highly anticipated
HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc technologies for high-definition video playback are
expected to make their debut later this year.
"This is an exciting time for HDTV, as we are seeing large quantities of
HD content and consumer products to support the content," said Dale Zimmerman,
Business Manager, DLP(TM) TV Products at Texas Instruments. "We are pleased
to provide our customers with a 1080p resolution chip so they can continue to
lead the TV market with innovative DLP TVs."
The inherent advantages of DLP technology include no burn-in or fade, deep
rich colors, and incredible, industry-leading contrast ratios. The speed
advantage of DLP technology allows for a 1-chip architecture that provides
razor-sharp images that will not misconverge over time, and excellent
reproduction of fast video such as sports and live action with no motion lag.

About Texas Instruments DLP Products
Texas Instruments DLP display technology offers clarity down to the most
minute detail, delivering pictures rich with color and brightness to large-
screen HDTVs and projectors for business, home, professional venue and digital
cinema (DLP Cinema(TM)). 75 of the world's top projection and display
manufacturers design, manufacture and market products based on DLP technology.
At the heart of every DLP chip is an array of up to 2 million microscopic
mirrors which switch incredibly fast to create a high resolution, highly
reliable, full color image. DLP technology's chip architecture and inherent
speed advantage provides razor-sharp images and excellent reproduction of fast
motion video. Since early 1996, more than 6 million DLP subsystems have been
shipped. For more information, please visit http://www.dlp.com

Texas Instruments Incorporated provides innovative DSP and Analog
technologies to meet our customers' real world signal processing requirements.
In addition to Semiconductor, the company's businesses include Sensors &
Controls and Educational & Productivity Solutions. TI is headquartered in
Dallas, Texas, and has manufacturing, design or sales operations in more than
25 countries.
Texas Instruments is traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the
symbol TXN. More information is located on the World Wide Web at http://www.ti.com .

Digital Light Processing, DLP and DLP Cinema are trademarks of Texas
Instruments.

SOURCE Texas Instruments DLP Products
Web Site: http://www.dlp.com http://www.ti.com
#12
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

What TI has done is create a chip that has 1080 X 920 mirrors. This allows
the entire vertical info presentation (ie 1080 pixels), but to get the full
horizontal (ie 1920 pixels), a mirror is used to shift the light path either
to the left or right. This is very different than classic interlace and how
it will appear to the eye is yet to be determined by the masses. Remember
that the rainbow effect that the single chip DLP sets exhibit is not seen by
everyone, so there may be display artifacts that are not being discussed.

David
#13
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

This is the same thing they are doing with the current HD3 chip (which
is doing 720p with a 640x720 mirror array). All the Samsung HL-Pxx63
models use this chip. If you look really close you will see the pixels
are diamond shaped instead of square so that is any easy way to tell
what you are looking at if you can get right up to the screen.


Steve
#14
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

Ok, that was news for me. How long has DLP been using this technique?
From the beginning?

Thanks

Richard
#15
----- HDTV Magazine Tips List -----

No, it started about a year ago, with the HL-Pxx63 Samsung's. Anything
that says it is using the HD3 chip is using that technique.

Steve
#16
Hugh,

The thread below may help you clarify visually how wobulation is used to get a 1080p image from a
(cheap) chip with half the pixels (xHD3).

Look at the computer graphics comparison between true 1080p, xHD3, and downscaled 720p (down the
middle of the first page of the thread).

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show ... hlight=HD3

On top of that weakness the Sammy xHD3 sets are not able to accept 1080p externally, not on their
2005/6 models.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra
#17
Does this chip work very well with 1080p now?
#18
The acceptance of 1080p was a design issue for any display and there were many true 1080p first generation that would not accept 1080p; some of that spilled over into 2nd gen products too.

The only DLP RP available now is from Mitsubishi and still uses the technique described here to create 1920X1080 from a 960X1080 device.

The benefit is pixels are difficult to see yet that also diminishes ultimate resolution and clarity. Another factor for 3D is this technology requires checkerboard encoding for 3D and will not accept full frame left/right eye. While that may seem detrimental a Mits DLP was recently reviewed for 3D and the result was no visible difference by the reviewer; the optical illusion works!

At this time you cannot beat this product for pricing based on screen size. Based on that this product makes sense for many people, even videophiles. The smallest size now is 60" going up to 82".

Bear in mind this thread covers only DLP RP. All DLP front projection has used true 720p or 1080p DMD devices.

BTW, there was a lot of commentary at the beginning of this thread about the wobulation mirror concerning size and noise. The mirror is at the final of the light output prior to the final lens so it is small as I suggested way back when. If I were to make you aware of the noise it creates then you would also be aware and able to identify it yet it is certainly not pronounced mixing right in with the rest of the noises coming from the product.
#19
I received my Mits WD-82738 just before Christmas from Amazon; I could NOT be happier! The 82" screen is phenomenal....clear, precise, bright colors all the time. I was also blown away by the 3D; have 2 pair of Viewsonic glasses (am waiting on the Optomas) and DirecTV 3D channels; really stunning 3D! I'm looking forward to the BCS championship game to be broadcast on ESPN 3D! I had a JVC 70" and just could not go down in screen size, so when I saw this Mits at a great price, I had to have it! Hopefully, this will last a long time, until LCD sizes get bigger and cheaper!
#20
I may have missed answering an important point...

Yes, nearly all displays today accept 1080p, especially if they are 1080p to begin with. This statement does not reflect any video processing that may be applied before the image makes it to the display which may negate some of the advantages of 1080p and 1080p at 24 frames. Videophiles should check reviews for such anomalies before purchasing.
#21
Timely update on this thread, as I am just starting to consider a replacement for my MITS 55" HDTV. After over 10 years, she's ready to give up the ghost I think (or should I say gain the red ghost!).

I had been delaying waiting for LCD/LED combos to become the same or larger size, and come down in price. However, all the recent deals I've seen on the MITS DLP/RP screens sure are tempting since I have the room to go up to at least the 73" (and the viewing distance is good, the 55 is really a tad small).

I have only been able to see the DLP in relatively dark showrooms. How do they work in a family room setting where there is light, and sometimes direct light on the screen, when compared to LCD/LED?

Also, if I'm reading the end of this thread correctly the MITS/DLP/RP displays 1920x1080, but it's doing it through some electronic trickery (trying to avoid saying "magic and mirrors"), is that correct? Does it affect the usefulness of the screen as a gaming/computer monitor at all?
#22
I would suggest having your current display looked at unless you just have a hankering to replace it. CRT displays do require recalibration and RPs require some annual maintenance to keep them looking their best. An ISF calibrator, THX calibrator or service center needs to adjust the focus, b/w tracking and convergence along with a lens and possible mirror cleaning. Often times this alone will exceed the response you had new out of the box (provided you have not worn down your CRT phosphors) and many feel like they have a new TV after the service.

Since you claim a 73" would work out the 55" has to be too small in which case I fully understand why you would consider replacing it. Maybe the Mits can be used in another room.

DLP RP can do medium to dark ambient light rooms but suffer in bright rooms just like what you already have. Due to black levels some small amount of bias lighting is better if you want all the lights off. In that area your CRT has an advantage.

Direct light is always difficult regardless of display type but yes, LCD has an advantage under such conditions due to shear light output.

Nearly all DLP RP used wobulated DMD devices rather than a full pixel matrix to reduce manufacturing cost. For all the concerns we had it worked out pretty good but tic-tac detail is reduced by this system. I have been very satisfied with our 5 year old Samsung wobulated 720p with video content.

Many use DLP RP for PC applications, gamers have no complaints I am aware of and the same can be said of 3D. There are issues with 1:1 pixel mapping and these products do have overscan that you cannot overcome, all inter-related to this facet of imaging. To be clear though, for PC the image is reduced in size, you will see the edges of your desktop, it does function.

Due that I am not overly fond of PC applications for this display technology yet many are satisfied and I have not received one complaint from a user related to this knowledge or my personal concerns.
#23
Thanks, great advice as always.

My MITS is suffering from phosphor burn and uneven wear, due to my lack of willingness to watch the imaged stretched, or worse yet with gray bars on the side. It now has a clear red tinge in the 4:3 section which would probably not be noticable if the bars weren't pristine white when watching Ice Road Truckers! <grin> Of course, I knew what I was doing but some things just can't be helped. Its bad enough that even my wife can see it!


Mitch Hodges
#24
While a b/w tracking adjustment could cure the red in the 4:3 area nothing can be done about the difference between the sides and that area without replacing CRTs which is not going to happen. Considering how obvious it is I would be on your side for replacement.

Good news with DLP is that won't ever be a problem :!:
#25
About what I was thinking. Thanks.