Richard/Ken or anybody need more advice on OTA antenna — Community

#1 Sep 9, 2004 at 1:13 pm (edited Sep 10, 2004)

Ok I finally purchased and had installed the Winegard UHF antenna PR9032 which was recommended here. See info below:

My suggestion for problematic reception that has proven to be quite effective so far...

Winegard PR9032, preamp and rotor 12 feet above your roof line.

If this won't get it then you have an expensive reception problem.

Richard F. Fisher
Mastertech Repair Corporation, Lawrenceville, GA
770-513-3987 E-Mail - [email protected]
Have you been calibrated? ISF and HAA Trained
Factory Authorized
Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Toshiba, Harman Kardon, Infinity, JBL, NAD

Like Ken said:
The advantage of a UHF-only antenna is that there are several available that are much better than the UHF part of any VHF/UHF combo.

Forget the combo!

For VHF just do a seperate antenna and use a U/V signal combiner/splitter. That is your best choice in your demanding application.

Good Luck!

The advantage of a UHF-only antenna is that there are several available that are much better than the UHF part of any VHF/UHF combo. The disadvantage of not having VHF is that beginning in 2007 nearly all OTA viewers will need VHF capability. Note that if you put a UHF antenna on the same mast as a VHF antenna there should be about 3 vertical feet of empty space between them

Ok here is my problem now. This UHF antenna that was suppose to be better to get the UHF channels out of St. Louis actually is getting worse reception that my old VHF/UHF combination. Most of the channels that I was getting before are now at a lower signal strength. I can not understand this. I use the rotor to try and get a better signal but can not even get the same higher signal I was originally getting with my old VHF/UHF combo which did not even have corner reflectors. My original problem is still there: not being able to pull in the STL Fox channel but now the other STL channels are at a weak signal and fade in and out more often than before.

I need more advice on what to do now since it does not appear a UHF only antenna will work in my situation. I am leaning toward going back to a large deepest fringe VHF/UHF combo. I am considering the Channel Master 3671(Deepest fringe crossfire series).

What are your guys opinion or advice on how I should proceed?

I appreciate any feedback on this.

Thanks..................... Mike

#2 Sep 9, 2004 at 2:20 pm

Your results do not make any sense at all. You need to go through your whole system and find out what is causing this problem. You may find some helpful direction and tips here...

http://www.ilovehdtv.com/hdlibrary/viewtopic.php?t=8

The information you were given is correct so your results point towards a system failure and that system failure may have favored the poorer performing antenna as it compensated for the problem.

#3 Sep 9, 2004 at 8:02 pm

Mjm- The 9032 is not qualitatively different from the UHF part of a combo, thus trees would not affect one differently from the other. However there is a quantitative difference: The 9032 has more gain and thus a narrower beam. At 50 yards, the tree is essentially blocking everything, so your reception depends on diffraction around the tree (either over the top or around the side, whichever path is less of an angle). Thus if you point the 9032 straight at the tree, it will be outperformed by an inferior antenna that has more reception to the sides.

Richard is essentially suggesting that you have made a mistake. Please don

#4 Sep 9, 2004 at 8:45 pm

MJM76,

Based on Ken's response it appears your situation is very challenging. What you may need is a guy with a spectrum analyzer that can sniff out what is going on. I had a client with the same situation as you, biggest U/V combo, and the 9032 was far better. It has to be. Ken's explanation is the only thing that makes any sense if indeed nothing is wrong with the system. On the other hand don't be surprised if your installer puts the old one back up and you have the same problem.

Please keep us updated and sorry to hear you are having trouble.

#5 Sep 10, 2004 at 4:09 am

MJM76,

Based on Ken's response it appears your situation is very challenging. What you may need is a guy with a spectrum analyzer that can sniff out what is going on. I had a client with the same situation as you, biggest U/V combo, and the 9032 was far better. It has to be. Ken's explanation is the only thing that makes any sense if indeed nothing is wrong with the system. On the other hand don't be surprised if your installer puts the old one back up and you have the same problem.

Please keep us updated and sorry to hear you are having trouble.

I have had this new antenna and rotor for just 2 nights now. Tonight I was moving the rotor around alot to try and tune the channels in. I was able to get most of them this evening but that is not unusual for me at night. I normally get a better signal at night than in the day.

My question is about UHF only antennas: Are they more directional(need more movement with a rotor to fine tune channels?) than UHF/VHF combos? On my old combo it was always pointing North towards the STL stations and I did not have a rotor. I point this new UHF antenna in the same north direction and I can not get the same channels with the good signal strength that I did with my UHF/VHF combo. Why is this? Tonight it seems that for some channels to come in I have to point the tip of the UHF antenna towards the WEST instead of north. Is this normal for UHF only antennas? I guess I was not expecting to have to move the antenna for each and every channel to get the best reception. Most of the STL channels are from 1 degree on the compass to I believe about 8 degrees, all NORTH. I am just confused about having to move this antenna so much.

I was able to get the FOX channel tonight with a normal signal. My signal meter is bad, normal and good. But as I said above it is not unusual for FOX to come in at night but fade away during the day.

I am anxious to see tomorrow morning if I can still get FOX or not. My guess it will be gone again.

Thanks for any feedback on UHF antennas and rotors.

Mike

#6 Sep 10, 2004 at 4:56 am

Mike- The beam width is determined by the raw gain. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryA.html#beam . At 70 miles you need a strong antenna. But a strong antenna is going to be hard to aim. The broad beam of your combo meant one aim was good for all St. Louis. But now you have to re-aim.

(There is a second reason why re-aiming might be necessary. In a multi-path situation, aiming slightly to one side can reduce one of the paths enough to improve overall reception. The best strategy for this can be different for different frequencies.)

Personally I find rotors very annoying for digital channels. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glos ... tml#rotors .

The most likely reason you lose FOX during the day is the

#7 Sep 10, 2004 at 5:33 pm

This morning I checked my STL stations again without moving the antenna from where it was positioned last night when I was receiving the channels fairly well, but this morning the STL channels are very weak. I can move the antenna some to get some of them back but most are unwatchable.

#8 Sep 11, 2004 at 2:03 pm

This morning I checked my signal on the STL stations and most of them are in the normal to good range which is strange because yesterday morning I tried using the rotor and tune in the stations and most of them I could not get a watchable signal on at least in the morning but last night after 8PM I was able to tune in the channels.

This UHF antenna so far I have found that every day is a new experience and I have to re-aim the antenna every day. It still seems that I was getting a little better signal on most of my channels with the my old UHF/VHF combo but this new UHF antenna is puzzling at times my signal strength approaches or exceeds my old signal on some of the STL channels and some channels in CAPE which is south of me. My STL channels are mostly due North.

One issue that really is puzzling with this new UHF antenna is my NBC channel out of STL............on the old antenna it's signal was normally at a normal to good and now most of the time it is a BAD signal..........I can re-aim the antenna and sometimes get it to come in but the best I have got it is only normal and it has never been in the good range yet. I am unsure if it is the actual transmission power of the station or it is my antenna. I have read on the AVS forums (STL thread) that NBC has been having some issues with their sound.......... fading in and out on some of their new fall shows(Hawaii???) so maybe the NBC affilliate is doing some maintenance on their end.

The last couple of days seeing the signal fade in and out I am just now sure which way I should go.......................... put back up my old antenna and keep the rotor to aim the VHF/UHF combo and hope I can pull in the stations like I used to...........even though several of the stations(FOX especially fades in and out badly) but for the most part the majority of the STL stations had a fairly stable signal with the old antenna(but the weather did affect them from time to time) or stick with this UHF antenna and contiuously having to re-aim it............which is frustrating at times.

#9 Sep 11, 2004 at 6:46 pm

Mike: If you want good reception at 70 miles you are going to have to put some work into it. Your 9032 is not performing up to its potential because it is not in a good spot. You must find a better spot. -Ken (Hint: The easiest first step: Try lowering it 2 feet. Next, try angling the boom. If there is little change with elevation, next try moving laterally.)

#10 Sep 11, 2004 at 6:56 pm

Ken,
Thanks for the advice. I was wondering why you would recommend to lower it two feet? Since this UHF antenna was put up in the same place as my VHF/UHF combo was and the only movement that was made was to accomodate the rotor was a small mast appproximately 2 feet was added. It is hard to believe that taking that away that mast would make that much of a difference.

Did you just choose that 2 feet at random or is there some significance to that 2 foot movement. I realize that from reading articles about installing an antenna that a little bit of movement one way or another can mean a lot to the reception.

I was just curious has to how you arrived at the recommendation of lowering the antenna 2 feet?

I will keep trying different movements.

I really do appreciate you trying to help me out.

#11 Sep 11, 2004 at 8:12 pm

Two feet was an educated guess.
1. If your multi-path is caused by the distant horizon then you strong spots will probably be arrayed horizontally and spaced 10 to 20 feet apart.
2. If your multi-path is caused by a ground reflection then the strong spots will be arrayed vertically and spaced probably about 3-5 feet apart.
3. If you multi-path is caused by a tree directly in front of the antenna then your strong spots will probably be arrayed very randomly.

A two-foot drop should make it apparent if #2 is your problem.

#12 Sep 11, 2004 at 9:35 pm (edited Sep 11, 2004)

Ken,
This afternoon I tried to tune in the FOX channel by using the rotor only and trying different locations. The Fox channel was coming in the best when by antenna was pointing either north-west or north east. Each time I was able to get only a bad to normal signal..........with the signal fading to bad at least every minute or two. The picture would pixelate alot but then return to normal. If I was trying to watch a movie I would miss a lot of the dialog....................lol.

My original plan was to keep my old antenna and put this UHF antenna at the east end of my house on a pole due to that area being the only area that is almost to the right of my neghbors tree. Even though my neghbors tree could possibly still interfere with the signal it would not be directly behind it like the old antenna was. But the installer did not have the proper bracket to install my CM telescopic pole on the side of my brick house. My guttering hangs over the side of my house 24 inches and thus I would need a bracket that would attach to my brick wall and extend out from 24 to 30 inches. The telescopic pole that I had bought was 30 feet tall. I still think this may be the way to go but I can not find the proper size bracket to buy. Since the installer could not get me a bracket I made the decision to take the chance and go ahead and replace my old antenna with the 9032 UHF and so far I regret the decision to do that.

I am considering having the installer put back up my old antenna and trying the rotor with it to see if it may pull in the STL stations. The old antenna would now be 2 to 3 feet higher due to the rotor assembly so maybe it might do even better now.................and then if this does not achieve the results I am looking for then I would try and get a bracket and another rotor and put up the telescopic CM pole at the end of my house and hope for the best.
I still think with everything I have tried that my main problem is my neighbors huge tree. I would pay him to cut it down but I am sure he would not want to since it provides shade for his back yard and deck.

Any thoughts on this?

Again guys I really do appreciate everybody's help. This forum is great for people helping other people out.

#13 Sep 11, 2004 at 9:35 pm

mjm76,

I am really perplexed by all this having tested 5 different antennas in the same location, mulitpath hell and lots of trees, with the 9032 outperforming all of them including the venerable CM4228. The fact that you cannot change out the antenna yourself or maintain it makes this even more difficult.

The only thing I have run into that was similar was an intermittent balun which drove me nuts since just moving the antenna would fix it for some length of time and then viola, marginal signal or dead channels.

One huge difference is I used an NTSC analog tuner for many of the evaluations and it is a great signal meter if you know what to look for. This was in fact what clued me into the balun problem since one day I checked the signal immediately with the VCR and noted that while the antenna was turning the signal strength would change, more snow less snow or sometimes severe snow as if a switch was being thrown. In your case I would have looked at those channels while the guy was there, have him change the antenna and check again. If the channels had more snow I would have told him right away to check all the connections and if nothing came from that have him change the balun. Using this method the 9032 should look equal to or better than your combo.

(Actually if you have one the first step is a simple indoor antenna. The combo should outperform it dramatically and if not then your install is suspect) First step would be to remove the preamp and check your NTSC reception with the old antenna. Swap it with the 9032 and you should have the same or better. Install the preamp. Should have same or better.

#14 Sep 11, 2004 at 11:04 pm

Mike:

#15 Sep 12, 2004 at 3:13 am

Ken,
I appreciate this information about the trees(s). This is exactly what I think "MY MAIN" problem is now after 4 days of fooling around with the rotor and moving the antenna all over the place to try and get a good signal. My signal is jumping around all over the place. I have to point the antenna in one direction for the daytime and another at night. Normally at night I have a lot better signal on my STL stations including FOX which I normally can not get during the day and on very warm days.

I appreciate you telling me about your experience with the higher antenna and then a lower one. This makes me feel like this is not a HOPELESS endeaver with this antenna.

After what you have told me I am more convinced that I should try and find a wall bracket for the telescopic mast and attached it to the end of my house.

My only concern is if it will be enough to get a better signal away from the trees. My end of my house is almost even with the right side of the tree(leaves stick out), but like I mentioned before this tree is approximately 50 yards from my house. I was going to try and put the mast toward the front of my house which would add another 10 yards away from the tree making it almost 60 yards away. North(STL stations) would be just a little bit left of the tree(alittle meaning less than 5 feet).

What is your opinion of the proposed positioning of the UHF antenna? I am optimistic that it should work. I am basing this on the direction that I am having to aim the UHF antenna now to pick up the FOX channel(which I can sometimes). This direction is north-east or sometimes east which is where I am planning to relocate the antenna. BTW: this relocation of the antenna would only be approximately 15 feet to the east on my roof.

Thanks again for the info.

Mike

#16 Sep 12, 2004 at 10:17 pm

Mike- At 70 miles no guarantees can be given. If you can achieve solid reception 9 out of 10 days, you are doing well. Every mistake you make will reduce the number of days with solid reception. So, little shortcuts that aren

#17 Sep 13, 2004 at 2:32 am

I am a little puzzled by the directions you mention. You will not get a suitably strong signal (at 70 miles) by pointing the antenna more than 10 degrees off the true direction to the station. -Ken

Ken,

Even with an UHF antenna??? It seems that from my experience with this UHF antenna that it has to find the strong spots for each channel, just pointing it in the same direction as my old combo will not get most of the channels. So a lot of movement is needed with it each and every day.

I am also very puzzled by having to point the UHF antenna in the easternly direction instead of north where the signal is. The only thing I can figure is that the digital signals are being deflected aroung the tree somehow. As I mentioned toward the east of my house is toward the edge of the tree and I would assume where the strongest signal would be coming from since 1 degree on the compass is just to the right of the tree.

I know this does not make a lot of sense but that is the direction that I have to point my antenna to get the FOX channel the best. At night I have been able to get it but it is very difficult during the day.

If you can think of anything else that would help me please let me know.
You have been a tremendous help to me and I appreciate it.

Something real strange tonight.......... at around 8PM I checked my STL stations and they were coming in around the normal reading even the hard to get FOX channel then at 10 PM without me moving the antenna I could not get any of the STL channels..............I do not know what is going on............... the weather is cool this evening and is humid(almost fog) so I guess this may be causing the problem but this is the first evening that I could not tune in my strongest STL station by moving the rotor and tuning it in. It would never tune in no matter where I put the rotor. STRANGE............................

Thanks again.

Mike

#18 Sep 13, 2004 at 5:32 am

Mike- I am still confused by your terms. By

#19 Sep 13, 2004 at 10:39 pm

Ken,
I just got home from work and read your post and I tuned the fox channel in by moving my 9032 antenna and the best signal at this moment 5:45PM central time is with the antenna pointing EAST( I get in the normal reading range(meter is bad, normal or good on my Sony HD300). But it fades to bad maybe every 3 to 5 minutes but it comes back to normal. On your link above with the 9032 pattern my tip of the antenna is pointing at almost the 90 degree mark(which is east). According to the maps I have seen which I can not seem to find now the STL Fox towers are at 1 degree on the compass with O degrees being directly north. My zip code is 63640.

Ken,
I do not own a digital camera. I have thought about getting one but I just have not pulled the trigger yet on one. LOL................ :wink:

maybe this is a good time to talk to my wife and get one?????? LOL.........

Just noticed something that may help you or me. The Fox channel that I am trying to tune in is 43.3.

My other STL channels are 56(CBS), 35(NBC), 30.1(ABC), 26(WB) 39(PBS), 47.1(UPN)

#20 Sep 14, 2004 at 5:57 pm

Richard said: (Actually if you have one the first step is a simple indoor antenna. The combo should outperform it dramatically and if not then your install is suspect) First step would be to remove the preamp and check your NTSC reception with the old antenna. Swap it with the 9032 and you should have the same or better. Install the preamp. Should have same or better.

Richard,
With your above statement are you saying that I should have the same reception with the 9032 as my old combo on my analog channels(NTSC)?
My analog channels from STL are 2,4,5,11. Channel 30 is also a local station but it is UHF only. None of these come in as well on the 9032 as my old one but I thought the 9032 being only a UHF antennal should not get good reception on the VHF channels(?NTSC?).

Could you tell me if I am understanding what you are suggesting above.

Also I was going over the connections in the directions and in the directions it says to hook up the coaxial/cable lead. It also mentions about hooking up another lead(VHF) is you are using a VHF coupling block with a VHF antenna. I am only using the 9032 alone and not with an attached VHF antenna so the directions make me believe that if a VHF coupling block is not being used then you would only hook up one lead and not the VHF lead. From looking at my antenna from the ground it appears that there are two leads hooked up instead of one. Could this lead being hooked into a VHF coupling block cause some problems with my antenna.

Again thanks for all your help.

#21 Sep 14, 2004 at 7:12 pm

Mike-
1. Reception from 90 degrees could be explained by a building in that direction with a flat face angled exactly right to reflect signals from St. Louis. You would probably be able to see this building from your antenna. This is so unlikely I am going to assume this is not happening.

2. Reception from 90 degrees could be explained by the antenna being assembled wrong. Since an installer put it up for you I am going to assume this is not the case.

3. Reception from 90 degrees (except for cases 1 and 2 above) is bizarre and suggests that your antenna is in a completely dead spot. You have to move it.

4. Reception from 90 degrees could be the result of a reflection from a close metallic object, possibly something under the roof of your house.

Antennaweb.org says the prospects for DTV reception in your ZIP code are bleak. But if you can get something with the antenna at 90 degrees then my guess is there is still hope. -Ken

#22 Sep 15, 2004 at 1:56 am (edited Sep 15, 2004)

Ken,
Tonight my best signal for the FOX channel(43.3) is in the normal range and I have had to point my antenna toward the northwest which is completely opposite of where the best signal was last night(almost due EAST). This is unbelievable. My only assumption is that the weather and the tree causes the signal to defract differently every day. I can tune in my STL stations on most days at night but the problem is during the day but the strong signals are very rarely in the same spot with the exception that the strongest signals are from 90 degrees to a negative 90 degrees on the spectrum.

BTW: I did want you to know that if I point my antenna toward the south a can pick up Paducah, Kentucky channel 6.1(32) which I am not sure how far away Paducah is from me.( my guess 200 plus miles). Actually I just checked expedia.com to see how far Paducah, Kentucky is away from me and it is 158 miles. So it is frustrating that I can't get some STL channels that are only 70 miles away.

So this is something else that does not make sense to me.

#23 Sep 15, 2004 at 11:32 pm

Antennaweb.org says the prospects for DTV reception in your ZIP code are bleak.

That is the first time I have ever seen no listings for DTV. They are telling you to go pound sand and it seems that is what you are experiencing....

Is there some hilly thing or mountain range between you and the towers? Are you in a big valley?

These are your NTSC locals.

violet - uhf KBSI 23 FOX CAPE GIRARDEAU MO 118̊ 52.6 23
violet - uhf WTCT 27 TBN MARION IL 100̊ 77.1 27

violet - uhf WRBU 46 SAH EAST ST. LOUIS IL 354̊ 43.0 46
violet - uhf KDNL 30 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 4̊ 56.2 30
violet - uhf KNLC 24 FMN ST. LOUIS MO 349̊ 41.6 24

If it was me...

I would grab that old antenna and stick it somewhere with the rotor that allows easy access. Run cable directly from my NTSC tuner input to the combo antenna. Check all stations and spin the antenna each time. Then I would put a new balun on the antenna and do a quick confirm on the TV. Then I would replace the antenna with the 9032. Check all stations and spin the antenna each time. I should see at least the same response or better from channels 23 and 27. If not I would suspect a defective antenna. As for 24, 30 and 46 I would expect the same except for what you and Ken have been discussing about that tree. Anyway I would then install the preamp. Check all stations and spin the antenna each time. Should have the same or better. You can use 24, 30 and 46 to sniff out your situation as those are coming from the direction you are having problems with and you will learn far more than you ever could using the DTV receiver

#24 Sep 16, 2004 at 1:25 am (edited Sep 16, 2004)

I do not know why antennaweb.org now says that I can not get DTV. Originally when I put the old combo up back in 2001 it had all my digital stations listed for STL. They were all listed as good with the exception of a couple which were listed as marginal. I can not remember which channels those where but they turned out not to be the channels that I experienced trouble with. Believe me I have been watching most of STL digital channels for the last 3 years on my old antenna. The only problem channels that were consistently fading in and out were/are Fox 43.3 and PBS(Channel 39). I think the PBS channel is at very low power but I could never understand why I had so much problem reception with FOX. So anyway antennaweb.org is very much incorrect about my situation. In fact I just had the installer over today and he put back up my old CM combo antenna and left the rotor up and so far all my STL stations are coming in great this evening without having to use the rotor to tune them in. The only exception is PBS which very rarely I could get anyway. BTW: my Fox station is coming in at normal to good this evening.

Before everybody including myself jump to any conclusions I just want to state that this has happen before with the FOX channel. On some nights the signal is great and others particulary during the day it is either gone completely or fades in and out. So this is a wait and see thing. I am hoping that with the rotor on my combo that I may be able to tune in FOX once it starts to fade away.

I of course kept the 9032 after the installer took it down. I am not going to give up on it due to this forum feeling this should outperform my big CM combo antenna. The installer gave me a 5 foot pole and I am either going to get a tripod or something to hold this pole and I am going to hook up the 9032 along with the wingard preamp and place it on the ground at the end of my house where it would clear my neighbors big tree and start to experiment with it in different locations and at different angles and see if I can get a better signal for the FOX station or the PBS station. I will keep everyone posted on my progress with the 9032.

I really want to thank everyone for their help. Everyone here is always so helpful and very knowlegeable. It is a great forum!!!!!!!

#25 Sep 23, 2004 at 3:26 am

OK here is an update on my struggles with my antenna and trying to get the FOX STL station.

It has been a week since the installer took down the 9032 UHF antenna and re-installed ny old CM UHF/VHF antenna that does not have UHF corner reflectors on it(2001 model--unsure if it came with them),

Anyway as soon as he put the old antenna back up and re-aimed it toward the north and alittle bit more east this time than it was before, all the major STL stations have had a very strong signal(at least for 70 miles from STL). Since the re-install I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO RECEIVE THE FOX CHANNEL EVERYDAY WITH A NORMAL TO GOOD SIGNAL(my meter reads bad, normal and good on my Sony HD300 receiver). There has not been any fade in and out on any of the major STL channels for the last 7 days.

The only changes that were made is the mast has an extra 3 feet to it due to the rotor and 3 ft. mast added and now the antenna is pointed alittle more northeast instead of north. Before it was pointed more directly into the middle of my neighbor's large tree. It is still behind the tree but for some reason(position, height, weather) the fox channel has stayed with a good signal.

I know this does not make sense.............. especially since most people recommended that the 9032 UHF antenna should work in a deep fringe area like mine.

I have not used the rotor since the old combo has been put up..........................LOL..........

: I am scared to move the antenna in any direction for fear that I will not be able to get the strong fox signal back again.

So far so good with the old antenna back in place and a few minor changes to my setup.

#26 Sep 30, 2004 at 3:46 am

Just another update concerning my antenna. It has been 2 weeks now since I had my old uhf/vhf combo put back up to replace the 9032 uhf only antenna and after 2 weeks the FOX STL channel has maintained a consistent signal with no signal fade out. See above for the adjustments made to my antenna setup.

I will keep updating this thread periodically.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that my signal stays strong. I have yet to move the antenna with the rotor.

Thanks............................