HDTV Almanac - Be CALM: House Bill Passes Sub-Committee

On the subject of volume levels going up and down depending on a commercial or a show: I notice while we watch several channels, the shows and the commercial varie a lot. Even news broadcast vary their volume. I have my TV, etc going through a A/V receiver. Anything other then the station Tv volume coming through the receiver is steady. There are not up and down volume. The problem is varable from the broadcast station. I have FIOS, in goes through the set top box, then through my receiver. I have even tried the broadcast right from the Tv to the receiver. The same problem...up and down variable volume levels. My Tv does control the steady volume, but not going through my receiver. I can be listening to a show at a comfortable level, as soon as the commercial comes on, the level could be up or down. Another commercial and the volume changes again, back to the show then another level. I usally have my remote near by and either hit mute, or lower the volume when loud. Some stations are more then others. Some stations, when the show comes back on will go up and/or down. Any comments on this? I am currented connected HDMI and optical audio. I have tried 'new' sets of cables..same results. Comments, opionions, suggestions, or just some opened forum remarks are welcome.
Thanks....Jog.

I have some doubt about this...Although all commercials could be set to the same volume there are some pretty large variables in station playback equipment, media, and broadcast audio.

Keeping the audio the same from the program if it's live to the commercial is quite a task as the audio in the program is dynamic, varying from a whisper to sounds that nearly lift the speakers kinda like the old TDK add for audio taps IIRC.

Speaking of commercials: WE often set our DVR to record shows long after we've gone to bed. I've noticed in many shows from the sci-fi channel that there is a slight and very annoying break in the signal approximately every 30 seconds, give or take about 5 seconds. On the DVR it's much worse and on the computer the picture goes completely for a fraction of a second. I set the DVR so I could step through it frame by frame. There was a picture in there of a DVD with cover. IOW an add. Now it may be something they are doing, or it may be they have very poor copies of copy protected material, but it's almost like the old subliminal adds which didn't work. At any rate it's really annoying. I wonder if any one else has seen this.

That's a curious observation about the SciFi channel, Roger. Could it be a subtle way to combat DVRs? I think it would be a short-sighted strategy, but an interesting one.

On a similar vein, I like the "Start Here" screen that ABC puts after its network spots. Sometimes it comes right before the start of the next segment of the current show, but sometimes it is sandwiched between ads. Maybe an experiment to see if people stop the skipping when they see it, so they are more likely to see the next ad?

As for the volume on programming and ads, I agree that it's complicated, but I believe it actually could be handled at the station. Just run the sound for everything through a compressor, bringing up the lowest dynamic and attenuating the highest levels so that they all fall within an "acceptable" range. I still believe that it's best handled in the TV itself, however, so the viewer has the option of controlling the levels on his or her own.

Alfred

Well, if you want to practice your "quick draw - McGraw" technique then try it on CBS's CSI Miami on an over the air signal. If you have any "young-uns", sick family members good luck. It isn't just the commercials either. I called the station, and sent them emails and I don't think it did any good at all. It is about the same as some of the lousy attempts at spelling on some of the graphics local stations put on. We never seen that years ago, but is so prevalent now. Must be that we have to insure that everyone has the "warm and fuzzy" feeling. As for the volume variations, it is a matter of giving the folks with the big 5.1, and 7.1 systems something to "play" with.

So who is jacking up the volume - the station or the commercial provider?

There are two points of control.

The advertisement producers set the levels for their segments, and the program producers set them for theirs. The point of an ad is to get your attention, so it's natural that the ad producer will choose to set it at or near the top of the acceptable level. For dramatic reasons, it's not unusual for a program segment to end with the audio equivalent of "fade to black". So you end with a major collision at the transition between the program and the ads.

The individual station controls how loud the audio signal is in general. Here in the Philadelphia market, the CBS affiliate cranks their volume up compared with all the other stations in the market. I have no explanation for why they do this, but it is very noticeable. The fact that algopher cites CSI as being a problem there, I suspect that there's something in the CBS network or its affiliates that is behind this louder volume.

Alfred

This all very interesting comments. I am glad to see that everyone has the problem with variable volume levels. I have 9 neighbors that have the same issue. It was terrible on Comcast and worst or Dish and Directv. Fios seems to be better with now big issues of drop outs and delay on audio and video. Prior ventrues never did solve the problems after over a yeat of some major trouble shooting with even trucks parks at distribution cable points and even in fromnt of my house to monitor.
Once I switched to Fios. everything was 99% improvement. I have been into Fios for about 6 months and had no problems. Recently though, I had some clitches in the system. For several days I lost the pictures for a few seconds that went black on the screen. It was happening on all my HD channels. That was fixed by resetting the DVR box. Everything was fine for a few days. Then I started to loose audio with words being chopped off or clipped. This went on for a while. Most uncommon with Fios. I checked with my neighbors and only one out of the nine had the same problem. We both reset our DVD. Seems like the problem in the box. I am monitoring the DVD audio and video now. If I have that problem and it may be time to get a new set top box from Verion. After I reset the box, things went well though. Watching.

On the commnet about steady audio; that is still going on. I agree the the stations are trying to get your attention, but the volume levels are some times way up there or way to low. THe interesting thing is on the volume level high, I can reduce the DB levels with my remote on Mute. The level is reduced to a lower level and not completely muted. THen I just press it again to get the volume back normally when the 'show comes back on. I thought about get a new AV received and looking to see if they have one that will control the volume level to a steady level. That may be my next step.

I don't know why on the broadcast stations the volume level is so variable. When listening to the music from the Fios, XM, or any FM, the sound is constant. The broadcast stations need to get their audio to gether and level out the issues so we don't go deaf listening to those loud levels that pop in and out intermittently.
Jog

I was told that the feed that they get is all over the place for lack of better terminology; so I would guess CBS in this case.

Programs have relatively high dynamic range audio and there fore the loud bits are loud and the quiet bits are, you guessed it, quiet.

Commercials on the other hand are usually heavily compressed. This means that the loud bits are as loud as they are allowed to be. (no pun intended) The quiet bits are raised in level to be just slightly less loud than the loudest bits.

This means that although there is no difference in maximum levels (as required by law, TV stations can loose their licenses for doing so) the commercials sound much much louder.

For an example,... when you watch the program you set your volume level at whatever nominal level you normally like to watch, depending on which channel you are viewing. This level is based on the average level of the program. Even if there are very loud sound effects and yelling voices you will be comfortable because the differences are proportionate and appropriate for what is happening on screen. When the commercial comes on the producers compress the sound signal so that it the nominal (average) level is close to the maximum level that the sound can be at. This means that you are now listening to what should be nominal sound levels at full volume. In other words, the sound is extremely loud.

And yes, it is done to get your attention. There are people who think that the "loudest" sound source will be listened to. Back in the days of AM broadcast this was actually true but now it is more of a way to convince program managers and promotional spot producers that they are "doing something aggressive" in marketing. The only thing it does for most of us is make us reach for the volume control or mute button. If these people were smart they would make the audio more pleasant to listen to and maybe even just a bit quieter so that you wouldn't mute or turn down the volume and might accidently listen to the commercials. I'm not holding my breath. I've worked around radio for over 20 years and still haven't seen much positive change.

Please note that I am not saying that all compression is bad. A little compression can be wonderful in that it makes it easier to listen to programing because you don't have all those changes in extreme quietness and loudness. This is one of the reasons that people at live music events that aren't heavily reinforced sometimes have trouble listening and hearing the show. They have become so used to Television and Radio programming that they don't know how to listen. The other thing that happens, sadly enough, is that they may not realise that they don't hear as well as they once did. This is also the reason that people can't seem to shut up at public events where you have to listen actively or you can't hear. The world isn't a TV or a Radio. I am a professional sound engineer and have put up with people over the years complaining that they can't hear what's going on when they won't shut up. When the peak SPL is between 90 and 95 A weighted at the mix position which is near the back of the house (venue) then the problem shouldn't be not being able to hear but rather not listening. Sorry, got a bit off the main topic there, but it is a pet peeve of mine.

If your TV/Receiver has a nighttime or compress or quiet viewing mode this will help but it will also destroy any dynamic range in the audio programming. In my book this dynamic range is what makes programs sound real and vibrant and helps reduce listener fatigue when watching over a longer period of time.

Good Luck,
Brian.

"SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY! AT NEW ENGLAND DRAGWAY! SEE THE NATIONAL NITRO FUNNY CAR CHAMPIONSHIPS! ..."

It's a wonder that our generation can hear at all. (And I saw Hendrix at Boston Garden!)

As for dynamic range, I agree; it's a very good thing, whether it's the color depth in a display or the audio in the programming.

Alfred

There are problems where ever you put the volume control. The most effective is to give control to the user or use technology to automate the volume of commercials at the receiver by embedding a signal or control code at the beginning of the commercial to set the volume to a specific level that could be input by the user. Giving this control to the user in this manner would unlikely be acceptable to the industry. It's like me either switching the channel, hitting pause, jumping ahead, or turning on mute when the "pitch men" come on with a commercial. I can't be the only one who is turned off by that kind of advertising.

At any rate, setting a specific limit at the receiver in general defeats the dramatic effects created by a wide dynamic range for many programs so it would have to be turned on and off with the add. Although a signal, or code in the adds to set the modulation to a specific % AT THE TRANSMITTER, might work and it wouldn't affect the receiver settings. Again the Industry might have a problem with this approach although they'd quite happily turn the volume up at our end if they could. As this is digital, audio level is something that can be locally or remotely controlled any where along the line "IF the equipment to do so is present". Unfortunately there are often noticeable variations between stations.
Implementation wise the ideal place would be at the transmitting equipment, but that means additional investment at the station. Including the technology in the receiver would likely mean decades before all users would benefit and most would remain unhappy in the meantime.

Adds, or signals inserted as I mentioned with the sci-fi channel can not be inserted like they used to in the "old days" with analog. An interrupt of only a few frames like the ones I'm talking about normally mess up the video sync causing pixelization, segmented images and frozen images that may last several times the length of the interruption. This makes the actual interruption very annoying and may mask the actual image, or sound that was inserted. Although the interruptions are very annoying they are much worse when viewing a program off the DVR. Of course for a small investment in editing they could take the time to seamlessly insert a couple of frames if they wished.

I would love if the Processor and TV manufacturers would place a control that would allow for on the fly change over from full dynamic range to a preselected level of compression and limiting.

My Parasound 2500-U processor has a button on the remote that allows me to turn the "night/dynamic range reduction" on and off at will.

I can enable a similar setting in my Sony Televisions here in Europe and in the USA but it is buried in about 3 levels or more down in the sound menus.

What I want is the ability to set the limiter level and type (i.e. "brickwall" or "smooth knee" or digital pre limit) and also decide the amount of compression that I want. This way we could decide what severity of sound control we want. When I am watching movies late at night I would like to limit the maximum levels without pushing the lower level signals up to the average. However when I am watching talk shows I could compress the lower level signals so that there would be less over all difference in gain. This would make the average level of the program very uniform which would be great for talking head shows in the late evening.

Sorry but that is what we sound operators like to do. The sad thing is that we get all sorts of worthless controls like super dynamic video that no one in their right mind would use and we don't get things that we actually could use. Like truly excellent dynamic range controls for audio. I could even make a case for dynamic range controls for video based on the fact that there are people with epilepsy that would probably benefit from being able to control the maximum contrast by limiting it to help control onset problems when they are watching some of the more aggressive video effects in modern programming these days. Also those of us with migraines and just elevated sensitivity to huge changes in brightness levels would benefit as well.

Of course the chances of any of this happening is on the edge of zero. I mean point and shoot cameras still have five different colors you can shoot in and don't have full control of the actual basic function in the camera. I mean a friend of mine has a Canon P&S camera that can shoot in sepia-tone, red, green, blue, etc, etc... but he can't control the depth of field in program mode and doesn't have the ability to set a minimum shutter speed that the Auto ISO changes at and has to go through two menu settings to use fill flash in the daylight. Really, who are we kidding... the manufacturers continue and will still keep on treating we consumers like complete idiots.

I try not to think about these things too much but that would be like not breathing. That isn't going to happen either.

If anyone knows of a processor that will do the things that I spoke of then I would love to know about it/them.

Err, and sorry about highjacking the thread away from the commentary about the CALM legislation. It would be nice but I am not holding my breath on that either.

Good Luck,
Brian.