Doesn't matter the number, if it were 1,000,000 and I'm a Warner Exec, I would EXPECT 1,000,000 names on the petition and not one less.
It's a good thing you are NOT a Warner Exec, because you are expecting a 100% response rate. When in the real world does that ever happen???
OK, so the chances of the Petition changing Warner's position are next to nothing; still the consumer should have the right to express their feelings to the company. ... OR is it a case of trying to say, freedom of expression shouldn't be allowed. Too many big businesses operate in a vacuum as if the customer doesn't matter, so customer feedback IS important.
Petition for Consumer Justice...a quaint idea, but very, very naive
Wrong, Mr. Paullin, I've been petitioning for consumer justice most successfully for 40 years (although I do agree with you that Warner is not the party to be petitioned). BTW, assuming someone successfully petitions the court to require the studios to license movies in both formats, why do you think that would be inferior to having Blue Ray only?
Its currently $129 at Costco, with five free HD DVDs. That also includes an HDMI cable, which effectively matches the previous $98 deal of several months ago. Its a no brainer to buy if you would benefit even with only a quality upconversion DVD player. I purchased one several months ago and feel way ahead of the game. I received my five free DVDs yesterday. If I never buy another HD DVD, I have paid a ridiculously low price for some very high quality goodies. I don't have a problem with buying a Blue Ray player down the road, if that is the only format available. What is wrong with stacking these two different formated players on top of each other. Both are relatively small components. There is nothing incompatible about using two different formats to reproduce movies. I still use (on a regular basis) in addition to CDs, a turntable, cassette deck, and a reel to reel tape deck to reproduce audio. Each of these components has its own strengths and weaknesses.
Regarding the original petition, I mentioned the following in another forum:
Petitions via email are not effective. A friend who is a computer expert received the following directly from a system administrator for a corporate system. It is an excellent message that recommends to NOT forward petitions!
He states: "Have you ever gotten an email that is a petition? It states a position
and asks you to add your name and address and to forward it to 10 or 15
people or your entire address book. The email can be forwarded on and on and
can collect thousands of names and email addresses.
A FACT: The completed petition is actually worth a couple of bucks to a
professional spammer because of the wealth of valid names and email
addresses contained therein. If you want to support the petition, send it as
your own personal letter to the intended recipient. Your position may carry
more weight as a personal letter than a laundry list of names and email
address on a petition. (Actually, if you think about it, who's supposed to
send the petition in to whatever cause it supports? No one. And don't
believe the ones that say that the email is being traced, it just ain't so!)
Besides:
ANOTHER FACT: Government entities, from the White House on down, DO NOT
accept emails as any semblance of a valid petition."
The above appears to make a lot of sense. As such, I won't be signing the HD petition, although I am enjoying and supporting HD DVD.
He states: "Have you ever gotten an email that is a petition? It states a position and asks you to add your name and address and to forward it to 10 or 15 people or your entire address book. The email can be forwarded on and on and can collect thousands of names and email addresses.
A valid concern. Always check out the privacy policy on these websites in addition to a quick Google search to verify their legitimacy. Here is a link to the privacy statement for the site in question: http://www.petitiononline.com/privacy-pets.html
A quick look and check of this policy quickly alleviated any concerns I might have had.
Jordanm,
It's hard for anyone else to say what the "right" value proposition is for YOU. Turns out there are about 1,000 titles out there currently, some of which are foreign, documentarys and concert videos. Still, there are 7 or 800 "normal" movies. Just know that someday (soon, I expect) the lights will go out completely on HD-DVD. Assuming you will want to continue the magic of high definition optical disc, you will have to buy a BD player. You will then be left with a "spare" that is good for archived HD-DVDs and up-converting NTSC discs. The real question is, of all the HD-DVDs that are available, how many do you really want to own/rent. If the number is small, perhaps your $250 is better spent as a headstart toward a BD player.
Bob,
Of course you never get 100% on a petition. You took me too literally. I only meant to say that no one at Warner (or Sony) expects any HD-DVD owner to be happy with this situation. That said, there's no turning back. They got what they want and 1,000,000 of us are stuck with the debris (remember Divx). I couldn't agree more that many big businesses attempt to operate in a vacuum, though these businesses eventually fade away. An immutable law of business is that they must sell products that people want to buy. Warner and Sony have already calculated that although they may have pissed off 1,000,000 people, those same people won't swear off HD optical discs just to get even. The few that might are easily replaced with "fence-sitters" who will now get in the game since the future is (now) clear. If it makes you feel better, by all means, sign the petition. It may serve as an excellent blood pressure reduction aid.
"OK, so the chances of the Petition changing Warner's position are next to nothing; still the consumer should have the right to express their feelings to the company. ... OR is it a case of trying to say, freedom of expression shouldn't be allowed. Too many big businesses operate in a vacuum as if the customer doesn't matter, so customer feedback IS important.
"
Of course you have the right to petition any business. Petitioning Toshiba is of no help. They agree with you. You'd have to petition all the studios that are solely recording Blu Ray and the HD ones that are or will be going to Blu Ray.
Will this do any good? If getting something off your chest is good, then it's good. But since the penetration of both formats is still next to nothing compared to dvd's the chances of any success is between Slim and None. And Slim left town.
You'd also have to petition all the retail outlets that only want to sell one format, which is probably all of them. Shelf space is expensive and stores hardly want to sell two different formats that do the same exact thing. The stores are far more interested in satisfying the over 99.6% (that may be generous) of Americans that don't have a Hi-Rez disc player yet. It will be more futile than yelling at Target, Costco, or Walmart to start selling LP's in addition to CD's. They won't do it.
Only video specialty stores might be interested in selling both and the big stores chains will eventually (within a year)be selling more Blu Ray machines and discs accidentally in a a couple of days than specialty stores would sell HD's in two years.
The only chance HD has is if Microsoft decides to continue selling HD players with their gaming console. But I think it is dubious they will stay with HD in the long run--as much as they have interests in HD and don't like Sony. Afterall, Sony buys their computer Operating Systems mostly from Microsoft. I'm sure that Microsoft is far more interested in selling its gaming consoles with the popular hi-rez format. And is Microsoft willing to take the chance that it will hurt their XBOX sales because they are the only ones with HD? I doubt it, but time will tell. In addition Microsoft is likely more interested in takingon Apple in streaming Hi Rez and standard definition movies and shows. They see what a boon that has been for Apple.
Phil,
First of all, NO COURT in the land is going to force any studio to publish in any perscribed way. Thankfully, we still live in a free enterprise system. The reason continuing with two formats is less preferable than either one winning outright is that is too expensive for the studios and therefore for consumers as well, since costs always trickle down. If all energies are focused on one format, we will likely get better discs, better players and eventually, if for no other reason than volume, lower costs. I truly wish the other side had won (see my column in Widescreen Review) but they didn't.
Who should we be mad at - Sony for doing what they had to do and writing the big check? - Warner for being the lynch pin? - Toshiba for not being smart enough to win the war? Hey, it is what it is. Let's get on with enjoying High Definition movies, however they're wrapped.
Whether an online petition is legally submittable to government is not important. It's press. You better believe that the PR department at WB knows about this petition, regardless of whether it's ever "officially submitted".
Whether they do anything about it is anyone's guess.
I've been in the computer/communication business for decades, and it is rarely the case that the "white hat" (i.e., better) technology wins. It's usually ok technology (the "gray hats") that's been heavily marketed that wins. (See Microsoft for examples).
I believe Blu-Ray is the better technology. With greater capacity and an open Java development environment, it should be the winner.
So I've been holding my breath, expecting to be disappointed once again. (Anyone want my laserdisc collection?). With the Warner Bros., the possibility rears its head that Blu-Ray could win!
However, I've been bitten too often to get my hopes up.
So I look on the HD-DVD petition as, well, the devil's spawn.
Yeah and there are billions stuck with 8 tracks, cassettes, Beta recorders, black & white TV's, soon to be TV's with analog tuners, 4:3 TV's, anything with CRT's in it, Windows 98 machines and soon to be Windows XP machines. I would even venture that BD will go down eventually since large capacity RAM is getting so cheap and the concept of a true media server is moving closer. You're like the Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. For a devine revelation hang out at any ewaste collection point for a while. Personally I think the sooner the better I would love to free up my media storage room for different uses, like a library and quiet place to read.
Most BD players upconvert to 1080P so buying an HD DVD for that purpose alone is a redundancy.
The new Apple iTouch has dumped the micro disk drives and it's just the start (at only 16gigs)... It's just the way that technology is constantly leap frogging ahead. You'll get over it. It was a cheap interim investment. I remember when the first CD players were a grand or more with a couple dozen CD's available. It's just the nature of things. I invested when they dropped to $600. When I bought my first 34" CRT HDTV was when they dropped from 8K to 4K - look at the prices now for 42" sets. This is why a lot of investors hate high technology stocks.
I paid $400 for my iPhone, which eveyone thinks is over the top expensive, when I ran across my original Moto Razr V3 bill (which they give away now) it was $599.00. My 8700C Blackberry was also around $599.00 and that when when the dollar was worth a whole lot more than it is today. Gas was around 2 bucks or so a gallon.
It was certainly a noble cause - some petitions have been successful in bringing back TV programs so my comments are nor meant to "dis" you.
I agree that the petition means little in the short run. HD DVD still offers the most affordable way for anyone looking to get into a high def optical format. Moreover, Universal and recent Paramount movies are not available on Blu-Ray. That may change in the future. However, we are still in a two format state now.
Petitioners would be better off setting up their preferences at the Warner store. At least it will be a bit more quantifiable than the petition with fake names and little to no verification.
The "let HD DVD die" people should petition Blu-Ray manufacturers to lower the prices of their players.
There are only 2 ways to get cheap players - sell them below cost to gain a foothold in the marketplace and establish your format as a defacto standard (see Toshiba) or get the volume ramped up so that manufacturing costs come down.
In other words the free lunch will soon be over. Get it now, if you want it.
First of all, NO COURT in the land is going to force any studio to publish in any perscribed way. Thankfully, we still live in a free enterprise system.
Wrong again Terry, we live under a free enterprise system, not a free predation system. And the courts do prevent contracts or conspiracies to restrain trade such as the Warners/Sony deal.
The reason continuing with two formats is less preferable than either one winning outright is that is too expensive for the studios and therefore for consumers as well, since costs always trickle down. If all energies are focused on one format, we will likely get better discs, better players and eventually, if for no other reason than volume, lower costs.
Just like having two cell phone companies is more expensive than just one (it actually is -- for the cell phone companies). Your trickle-down theory is quaint, but also quite na
There are only 2 ways to get cheap players - sell them below cost to gain a foothold in the marketplace and establish your format as a defacto standard (see Toshiba) or get the volume ramped up so that manufacturing costs come down.
You miss the third and most important way: competition fomented technology (see regman above).
Phil - why won't you answer my question? If one format is bad, then why didn't we hear these same arguments with standard DVDs? Why is it different? Where does the monopoly exist? Certainly not in players - all major mfrs will now be making BR players (that's called competition, BTW).
Phil - why won't you answer my question? If one format is bad, then why didn't we hear these same arguments with standard DVDs? Why is it different? Where does the monopoly exist? Certainly not in players - all major mfrs will now be making BR players (that's called competition, BTW).
You didn't ask me--but I'll answer anyway: 1) It took far longer for DVD player prices to fall than HD disc players--why--competition; 2) had there been an alternative medium to DVD, DVD disc prices would have been even lower--why-- competition always produces lower prices than monopoly.
So I've been holding my breath, expecting to be disappointed once again. (Anyone want my laserdisc collection?). With the Warner Bros., the possibility rears its head that Blu-Ray could win!
Exhale David - the fat lady has sung. Many don't know (except for Phil, of coursel) that the Paramount and Universal deals have escape clauses that let them out if Warner flipped. Warner flipped - it's over. Just like we can find nearly everything put on celluloid now transferred to DVD, you can expect to find "HD-DVD only" movies re-mastered on BD when the the transfer houses get caught up. I personally liked HD-DVD for it's superior user interactivity, menu schemes, etc., but I'm sure you have some valid technical reasons for your BD preference as well. It's all moot now. Enjoy the movies!
Wrong again Terry, we live under a free enterprise system, not a free predation system. And the courts do prevent contracts or conspiracies to restrain trade such as the Warners/Sony deal.
Only the future can really tell, but I believe that you are wrong here too. A monopolized blue ray only industry will not produce players or discs at prices low enough for the mass-market; and ultimately lose out to Internet HD movies. And HD disc media will become a niche market only.
Well, Phil, looks like I'm wrong about most everything. But since you aren't, you might do Sony the favor of dropping them an e-mail. Since they have now spent upwards of a BILLION dollars securing this "monopoly", their legal department should be advised of their mis-step. I'm thinking it probably came up in a board meeting once, but I'm probably wrong about that too.
1) It took far longer for DVD player prices to fall than HD disc players--why--competition
The current "cheap" prices for HD DVD and PS3 players (if you discount the game portion of the PS3) are not due to "competition". These cheap prices are short term bribes to gain market penetration to win the format war. I guarantee you the HD DVD prices will go back to normal once Toshiba accepts that HD DVD won't win, as will Blu-Ray player prices. It's just like those introductory rates you get for cable or satellite to switch providers. Long term the prices will rise, then start to drop as consumers start purchasing and volumes ramp up.
CD and DVD prices were high to begin with, then dropped over time. The same will happen with Blu-Ray, just as it does with every other technology.
2) had there been an alternative medium to DVD, DVD disc prices would have been even lower--why-- competition always produces lower prices than monopoly.
You're ignoring the fact that consumers stopped purchasing ALL DVD formats because of the uncertainty, and that's what drove Warner to side with Sony to break the stalemate.
You're trying to rationalize your personal preferences for HD DVD and cheap/free players and movies by throwing around words like anti-trust, monopoly, competition and class-action lawsuits. Get over it.
The current "cheap" prices for HD DVD and PS3 players (if you discount the game portion of the PS3) are not due to "competition". These cheap prices are short term bribes to gain market penetration to win the format war.
Umm ... isn't that called "competition"? If there was no competition, would they need short-term bribes? No. So that's competition.
The current "cheap" prices for HD DVD and PS3 players (if you discount the game portion of the PS3) are not due to "competition". These cheap prices are short term bribes to gain market penetration to win the format war.
Umm ... isn't that called "competition"? If there was no competition, would they need short-term bribes? No. So that's competition.
- Miller
It's unsustainable. No company can afford to basically give away players and movies for very long. How much do you think Toshiba loses every time they sell a player and 5 movies for $150? And how long do you think companies can stay in business losing money like that?
It's no different than Wendy's offering 50 cent sandwiches and 5 free Frostys in an attempt to gain marketshare from McDonalds and Burger King. It works for a few days or weeks but after a year they'd be out of business.
True competition forces companies to constantly lower their cost structures and add features to keep or gain market share.
It's no different than Wendy's offering 50 cent sandwiches and 5 free Frostys in an attempt to gain marketshare from McDonalds and Burger King. It works for a few days or weeks but after a year they'd be out of business.
Pay attention. I said it was unsustainable. Toshiba could not afford to keep giving away players and 5 movies for $150 regardless of what happens with the format war. It's a short term perk for early adopters, that's all.
Or do you somehow believe that a company can stay in business by continually losing money?
The current "cheap" prices for HD DVD and PS3 players (if you discount the game portion of the PS3) are not due to "competition".
I'm not arguing that it's sustainable, I agree with you on that ... but just because a low price is unsustainable does not mean it isn't due to competition.
Just accept that you were mistaken and let's move on.
