Consumer Electronics Association Reacts to California Energy Commission TV Energy Use Mandates

Sh*t like this makes me embarassed to say I was born here. Next thing you know the butt heads will have us on bicycles attached to generators to watch TV. Tree hugging liberal idiots.

regman - Sheesh, you'd think someone kicked your dog (for political reasons no less).

It always astounds me that while any thinking person would understand the myriad problems with energy consumption, there is nothing ever that should be done to fix it. (and of course taking the Libertarian-Reagan view - certainly nothing that's not a free ride for business and all that trickle down fraud).

I am a 60" plasma guy, so this does concern me - I seriously doubt plasma will be able to make the grade, but ALWAYS industry and technology will gravitate to the money and the market. OLED or similar maybe?

And just maybe this will help us breath a tiny bit cleaner air, a bit less mercury from yet another coal plant (or similar for every technology). And yeah, I believe in man made global warming - just maybe this will help a bit.

I was in California in the early to mid 60's - and I have seen/breathed the air of the inversions. It was hell - almost a vision of apocalypic sci-fi. And California forced cleaner cars down everyones throat, and we were ALL better for it. (and I seem to remember a lot of whining then also).

So at least for one "Tree hugging liberal idiot", your, uh, arguments don't fly.

Hope this doesn't turn into a political debate but...

So you have a 60 inch plasma. I imagine you will be giving it up. Oh, no?
Not surprised.
I live in MA. Lots of do-gooders think taxes should be increased. After a referendum vote, it is now listed on every state tax return that you can give extra money to the state. It doesn't happen. No one gives extra.

As I alway say liberals feel. Conservatives think. Just try to stop and look at your comment. You are NOW a 60 inch plasma guy. The heck with the next guy who wants one. You have yours. Let the next guy suffer.

Unfortunately logic doesn't work with you and you will start name calling.

Funny, I have now and always 'discussed' as compared to your assumptive insults. And then you play the "conservative" Hegelian didactic of prempting discourse by insulting it. So you think. Do you think you know me or my depth of civic pride?

Well, I'm a 58" plasma guy and this IS a political topic. 1/2 the year I need no heat in my detached home theater (the plasma 783W does a fine job as a space heater) - the other 1/2, I open the celestory windows and have convection cooling. I have a high efficiency heat pump when (rarely) needed. I mainly only use it for movies anyway.

The Federal Republik of Kalifornia is looking for all of the money it can get. They're jacking up the "fees" for virtually everything - but they don't have the guts to call it a tax increase. The terminator turned out to be a girly girl. With all of our manufacturing being outsourced off shore where did all that energy go? This year the PG&E jacked up the electric rates 17%. Only Hawaii has higher gasoline prices. Our state legislature, mostly democrat, has a spend mentality and unfortunately the fed is following Kalifornia's lead into oblivion. They always do...

I'm using less electricity now then before I bought the plasma.

You must have lived in the southland since, in the Bay Area, we have about 2 "spare the air" days a year,

"governmental social engineering" now there's a concept. Glenn Beck is looking more like the soothsayer of the progressive movement all the time. If we're going to turn into a third world country it would all make sense wouldn't it. Now we have "smart meters" that supposedly can even determine how much power consumption your refrigerator is using or maybe even your 60" plasma.

When they start disarming us the circle will be complete and you can bet that it is coming to a state near you. So much for the Constitution...

I wasn't on board with Bush either just for the record.

I hope that you are not refering to me as insulting you as I believe in the free exchange of ideas, that the debate should remain healthy and civil.

regman, no it was not you I referred to about insults - and despite my liberal instincts, and childlike impulse control, I hope to not insult you.

BUT, I would love to see some compartmentalization of the true context and real constitutional law, from the wandering that your posts are taking.

This rulling is a frustration that I too will face when my plasmas dies or have to go due to my next passion. So I expect to feel the pain, and while I am not inclined to trash my present hardware (they are calibrated to use less power) I expect to guide my many family and friends to make good choices - like LED LCDs.

Without trying to a thesis I am ill prepared to do smartly - I do not see where 'the common welfare', or the 'will of the people' is being violated by this or many other annoying, painful, or intrusive rules. After all our government wells up from the people, and the courts tend to balance some of the excess. And this has nothing to do with disarming us or taking our rights away. Freedom isn't - except for the monopolists and criminal. The rest of us have guidelines.

I can see your point, but I have long bought into some limits to my actions to support the survival of our society. For example the right to be a bigot is clearly free speech, yet we are not allowed to be so in any governmental realm, most all business realms, and certainly can't be practically. That would be much closer to a constitutional issue - yet most all of us belive it is an acceptable compromise for the societal good.

The big kahuna is global warming - and limits to what we can do to repair. I personally feel we have passed the trip points and it is no longer possible for the bulk of humans to survive. (both permafrost melt and population being the keys for me). But, I have kids, have a view of society and believe we have to try.


Anyway, enough wanderings from me....let's get down to brass tacks. Industry will inovate, and Glenn Beck is a cheap whore who has no bond with American values vis-a-vis a viable society. He is a salesman for a do-nothing movement (at all cost).

We have lost more freedom in the last nine years since the writing of the Constitution. When gov't has control over the internet, banking industry, autos, medical records, housing, TV content, the unions, your freedom will be toast. Frankly the science that I have read doesn't support that global warming is a man made event but even if it was the pollution in China is reaching the continental United States. I lived in Shezhen for 3 weeks a few years ago and it was so badly polluted it was unbeleivable. You could cut it with a knife. I don't hear about the Europeans complaining that our pollution is reaching them. Besides one big vocanic eruption can dwarf anything that man can make in one event.

There is so much double speak as well. PG&E will subsidize an "Energy Star' water heater but won't rebate an on demand water heater. They're decommisioning hydroelectric plants all the time and charging us to do it. The fact that nuclear power plants have been suppressed for decades is shameful.

Did you hear that Kalifornia now limts sales of ammo to 50 rounds a week and photo ID and thumprint will be required? They have also banned internet sales and local shops are expensive and few and far inbetween. I always suspected that the dems would persue gun control through the back door.

We do need to be better stewards of the planet, I think that we all agree with that, but this cap & trade shell game is going to be a costly farce. I can't recall when we had a government so full of corrupt people, tax cheats, philanderers, extremists, etc. Compartmentalized evil is one way to look at it. Personally , I think they should fire the whole damn government and start from scratch. Recall 'em all!

Banning 60" plasmas, especially in this economy, is right up there with the ban on .50 caliber long guns, barring the cost of both (they cost about the same - a Barrett .50 cal is around 6K +, few people have access anyway so it's just more political grandstanding without addressing the real issues. This is becoming more and more the paradigm of modern government.

We used to be under a mile of ice in New England. It melted long before my Hummer was around. Then there was a mini ice age in Europe that wreaked havoc. Why do "earthers" who believe so much in mother earth not believe she will cycle. It will get warmer. It will get colder. Al Gore will get richer. 100 million isn't enough for this scam he has perpetrated.
Why has it gotten colder these last 10 years.
What I love is the story of my child's schoolmate. The kid was talking a while ago about how cold it was. My guy said yeah global warming huh?. The boy has been trained well. "Yes" he said. "Global warming makes it colder"
That is why they now use climate change. It is like number of jobs saved. Can't be quantified.
No insults? what did you say about Glen Beck?
One last typical liberal story. I was in a discussion about Clinton while he was "head" of the country. A gentleman said how we need new taxes to give more money to the poor. We were discussing finances at the time. When I asked where he had his investments he emphatically said municipal bonds. Didn't bat an eyelash. (zero taxes get it)

When I told my sons (elementary school) about the large screen law they immediately said why don't they go to another state to buy them then. LOGIC. so they will just need a new law to outlaw them in the house. When that law is broken they will need to outlaw the next thing.

Regman. You are fightng a losing battle. keep quiet. you will be marked as a radical.

Who is John Galt?

You guys are just victims of the Exxon, API, libertarian (necon) propaganda. I have investigated every single reference ever given to me that is out there to obfiscate man-made global warming - and EVERY SINGLE ONE is either a paid mouthpiece, a religious zealot, a libertarian (screaming freedom like the were being gutted), or just a hypnotized right winger. There might have been one guy who was a scientist and sincere - but he was like 90 years old and fairly obviously just stuck.

I am serious - NOT ONE scientist in their right mind or without a wad of bribery in their pocket - does not believe in man-made global warming. Because at this point you'd have to be sooooo off, you'd think the earth was flat.

Yes the earth warms and cools - but all that has been separated from the fact that this is a greenhouse situation. All you have to know is that bacteria - the first bacteria that did photosynthesis took a hot carbon loaded atmosphere and spent like millions of years storing the carbon in the ground.

Then in 200 years we have oh so efficiently learned to pump every drop we can back into the atmosphere. And as we populate in a geometric progression - we are doomed to go back to that hot carbon loaded atmosphere.

Simply look at the ebb and flow of ice ages and you will find they DID NOT HAPPEN IN 200 years. And there is just so much other evidence.

Now, I would suggest if that bothers you too much, to think your grandchildren are doomed - then pretend it is all a left wing, tree hugging, Al Gore exploited fairy ring, and go live your lives with Fox. The kings of 'freedom' fraud and lies - and while the liars make money, you can pretend reality is just a dream. If you care, then read some real information, science.

portkins: I never alluded to not insulting Beck and the other whores and liars. I just won't insult my co-conversants on this forum. I have no hesitation other than best practice communications to not be over the top disgusted with the selfserving frauds and liars. I have not considered Fox News as anymore than cheap frauds for a long time, and have stated it here. They are not functional equivalent nor morally equivalent to anything but a propaganda machine for a right wing that can't win without lies and fraud.

I mean the shallow proof is three times now they have been busted for using alternate rally photos to lie about the numbers in their 'right wing' tea bagger (aka. ignorant bigots for the most part) festivals and now I hear to cover for that bright light, Sarah.

As for it getting colder for the last 10 years....it has not. Produce the facts and I'll conceed. Your neighborhood may have chilled, but the world has not. And in fact in the last ten years the ocean has heated to the point of killing reefs, and is saturating with carbon dioxide.

Your story about Clinton is so out of context I have no idea what your point it. Unless to think that investing is tax free bonds is going to make him rich. (They tend to pay less). Just because a person is a liberal does not make them stupid. I am not going to trash my television yet (wasting the energy to manufacture - but might make a different choice later) and if the best investment is tax free I might use it. But I am willing to understand why I, we, need to pay our fair share in order to build a demand based, functioning economy. And the importance of attempting to get all citizens functioning in that economy. Study facts and history, you will learn a few things about planets and economies.

I like Fox, I also like BBC, NPR and occasionally I even listen and/or watch the left media (MSNBC, etc.). I read a left newspaper every day and although I don't always agree at least I listen to their point of view. I would like to think that I have a balanced view of reality. being an extreme right or left is not going to solve any problems, only exacerbate them. I tend to be a moderate and am really disgusted by the actions of both parties. I also have just as much disgust at the current political process as I do the energy companies. They are all a bunch of self serving scumbags as far as I am concerned. I don't always agree with Beck either but it is refreshing that occasionally someone will come along with a different point of view to be considered. And that is what diversity is all about. Obama is a brilliant propagandist and people are starting to see through it - just look at the poll numbers.

Climate researtch is complex and hampered by lack of good science. They've only been keeping weather records for a few hundred years at best. The geologists paint a different picture of the cyclic nature of the earth. The last I heard it was cow farts that were the main cause of "global warming" -spare me.

And I don't call the left wing commentators "liars or whores" either. But Al Gore is definitely a whore...

Seriously though, when has big governement EVER been a benefit to the public? We're still paying off the WPA debts from the FDR era. But back to the topic, since electric rates are up 17% in ONE rate increase (in Kalifornia) - the MARKET should be the driving force for more energy efficient TV's not yet another left wing infringement on our personal liberties and the pursuit of happiness.

The Market just brought us a depression - yes, via politicians who swallowed the free market bs - aka. monopolistic manipulations.

That you watch Fox and thinking Beck has anything really to offer, is reflected in your statement "by lack of good science". In fact the science is extremely good - and in fact it is rather preposterous to think we can do and make all that we can do, but we can't measure ice or the impact of methane (the true greenhouse generator that will do us in). But, as we improve it will get to the point of predicting the sequence of event. We understand with lots of research math and various proofs - the dynamics of the earth from its birth. Core samples and the science of material, gas analysis gives us tremendous insight - far beyond transitory tempature measurements.

That we can make all the things we do (material science, engineering etc.), launch space shuttles and satellites (and they then can look at earth). We can design nano-particle sized machines, and treat tumors at the 10 micon level, .....well it goes on an on. We can do all that, and all of a sudden we are too stupid to figure out world wide global warming? I mean really, let's simplify it - can you see ice melt? Can you see methane that has been buried for maybe millions of years begin to boil out of the permafrost? Can you see the pictures of the Artic ice pack disappearing, and leaving so much more dark water to absorb light?

Yes, cow gas (and people too) = methane = 20 times worse a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide.

I am not sure I have this totally accurate, but a study of those who watch Fox, vs. those who don't has a don't believe vs. do believe in man made global warming of about 60% vs. 30%. So in other words, given Fox has a serious problem with truth and falling over their own hyperbole and propaganda, you are just not getting real information from them.

You will find that most media news while not as bias as Fox, utterly leaves out the realities of what is going on. I get my information from journals, interviews with sources, newspapers (LA & NY), research on the internet(s)...and progressive radio. Big media is all big corporate and while I like the bias of MSNBC, even they are not delivering it all.

To not get too deep, and I do not follow California internals (despite the damage they can do to me), nor the value of .50 calibre weapons, nor do I think my personal liberties are infringed any more than a push to Digital TV (which cost BILLIONS to consumers), or the patriot act - brought by hysteria and paranoia. As for Al Gore being a whore - I would appreciate any references that show his information-presentation was bought, or how he has profiteered.

Oh, I am disgusted with my party as well - but see them as attempting to make progress, and the other party - having nothing to offer at all. I mean, it is utterly deaf, dumb and blind. And hell bent to propogate the big lies. I mean, given their propaganda arm is Faux news...and they are eating their own because the are not reactionary enough, and think Obama can be a Nazi and a Communist, and a Muslim and radical Christian....sheesh.

I looked at the data and don't see warmer so much as I am seeing minimal change over the past 10 years. It just makes better headlines to say that global warming is over. Unfortunately, global warming has just plateaued.

I think it is much more important to understand what is going on than to say Global warming is alive or dead. Unfortunately understanding doesn't seem to make headlines and therefor no one talks about it or even asks for it.

I would like to posit that regardless of how annoyed we may get about regulation I would rather have things out slowly before we have an energy crisis for real. Not the hot flashes that we have been having every now and then over the past few decades.

For example, I HATE many fluorescent fixtures and they are being mandated all over the world. Pretty soon I worry of being able to get incandescent lamps for the lighting fixtures I have and love. Color temperature is everything.

We need to conserve energy and not let the energy companies jack the prices up on us because they don't want to fix the system but are afraid of how much it might cost and if they don't get all of our money now when will they fund their pensions anyway? You'd think that after Enron people would get wise to the scam. But I guess the right money is still going to the right places.

After the past 8 years in particular and 25 years in general I feel that I can tolerate a lot of drama and difficulty for a little while yet.

Brian.

At the bottom of this is a link because the article is too long to cut and paste. A few of you say show the evidence. Well this just out today. Internal memos and E-mails that SHOW temperatures were doctored by scientists to create the illusion of global warming. Or will you say Fox news created it. One thing I will say for Glen Beck. He has given many confidence to not be cowered by your name calling. You say you don't name call but you do it many times in each post. All I ask is keep an open mind. I listen to NPR every day. I don't agree 73% of the time but I listen and learn. I challenge you to watch Glen Beck for 2 nights for the whole hour. Tonight he did a nice show with an author of fiction books. Open your mind. It is enlightening. The country is going under and if you don't see it shame on you. The national debt has doubled in 4 years. That is both parties. Why do you think people that believe others should take responsibility for themselves (and help the most needy) are republicans?

And by the way. Google Gores net worth. 100 million isn't exploiting the global warming scam? And once again I will say. There could be global warming but it is not caused by a .002% change in the percentage of Co2. Look at the historic sunspots. last time they were so low we had the mini ice age in the dark ages. Or did Fox news blast them away.

check out the exposed scam in global warming in the news today. Well not in the extreme left wing media (or even fox)

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/200 ... rs_to.html

dadden - don't be so forlorn over the loss of incandescent, even flourescent is doomed. LED is it. for example look up LEDULTIMATE.COM for info on In Production-being Delivered tube lamps in flourscent format - with a range of colors. And don't need ballast and are unbreakable (the tube).

Surfacemount LED bulbs are about to avalanche upon us - they are even more efficient than the old LEDs, and can be coated to adjust the light output. They are very long lived as well.

Phillips has submitted to a 'contest' a 60watt equivalent (50% of the incandescent market) that has more 50% light output per watt than the best CFL, with no-mercury, and is estimated to last 25,000 hours. Probably an unbreakable polycarbonate. Might be expensive at first, but will pay for itself, and as production scales up.

And they are dimmable (as best I know).

portkins....oh dear.

First, that Gore is rich does not at all imply he is a liar or a whore. His family was rich, and we all know the rich politicians get richer - more opportunities, big speaking fees, book deals, if not insider info (nothing implied to Gore there, just a general cynicism on my part). That he has made money, maybe even on his movie does not imply anything but he is a capitalist (or should I say, human). That he is working for the greater good - that has quite a bit more credibility than obstructionist, rightest posturing and military-industrial exploitation, based on family dysfunction and religious fraud (Bush Jr.). And that doggedly followed with endless hysterical lies by their media lap dogs.

Then there is your link about the British scandle. I am somewhat suspicious. I never would suggest that all scientists on "my side" are perfect - after all there are myriad motivations in any context. Like career paths, funding etc. But, I have to say for what I read, somewhat out of context, they could have been tweaking data to make certain points. Point being, there are variances in surface temperatures - THAT MEAN NOTHING about global warming - yet can confuse a presentation. I mean really, the deniers scream that all the time. I would like to hear the full context first, rather than a gamer web site that has a hard and obvious agenda. And presents information as such.

portkins, you are apparently quite locked in your position, similar to the 28% or so rightists, who will hear, read, believe nothing that does not fit their perspectives. I have best friends who are in that camp - we have no end of argument. But I will be relentless in my pursuit of truth, so yes, almost always another answer. BTW, try this as a first step to the truths: http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns ... on-secrets

I'm totally on board with LED's but I have some reservations. First the so-called energy efficient LED traffic lights fail at an alarming rate. These epiromize reliability - so what's up with that?. I have incandescent traffic light bulbs and they last for decades. Secondly LED high intensity fixtures have been developed for theatrical use, flashlights, automotive use, etc, yet a standard Edison base, 40W equivalent, LED light, is around 50 bucks the last time I looked. You can bet that GE has something to do with the pricing. Since the manfacture of appropriate heat handling (yes LED's do generate some heat) substrates is mature enough to be used for theatrical luminaire use then why the hell isn't it econmically available for the consumer - other then you will never need another replacement bulb (well maybe).

I have dimmers all around my house so CF's aren't an option. Yes, LED's are dimmable with standard SCR type dimmers.

As a sidenote, all but one of the sixpack of CF bulbs I bought died a premature death and the light looks like sh*t...

Steve
Didn't an ex head of Greenpeace, or another group like that come out for Nuke power and they excoriated him for that? I am sure we can agree that is the least harmful source of energy at this time.

I don't remember saying Exxon or any big company is my buddy. We agree there. They exploit anyone they can. If Michael Moore was smarter he would have named his new movie Big Business. He trashes capitalism but capitalism is the best system in the world. Free market.
What has gone wrong is big international business has taken over. They are in bed with politicians to fleece you and me.
GoldmanSax is sucking us dry for the benefit of a few.

LED is the future. I can't wait. It is coming.
One thing that I couldn't believe a while back is what I saw in a top of the line Lexus. They had LED for interior lights and they were pathetic. They weren't the new Cree bulbs but the old style and you could barely see. What a way to cheapen a car.

Well I drive a beemer and you given me yet more more reason why I like it... Interior lighting is superb and recessed so you are not blinded - Lexus should have copied the whole thing instead of just part of it ;-)

The quicker they kill compact flourescents the better... Doesn't the mercury content count for SOMETHING? Why doesn't the gov't do something useful and mandate mass production of LED Edison bulbs?!?!?

Oh no -they're worried about the 100 or so 60" plasmas that will be sold in Kalifornia. They'll probably have plasma police at the borders. After all they'll need to refill those 40,000 criminals they're going to release early because they can't get adequate medical in prison. Like we don't have enough problems on the streets now... The SEIU will NEVER tolerate prison job losses so watch out you plasma smugglers!

We have the worst, most dumb ass, state legislature in the universe (except for maybe Greenland - didn't their country go bankrupt). It's our our damn fault because so few people take seriously their right to vote, particularly in the smaller elections.

GET OUT THERE AND VOTE - IN EVERY ELECTION!!!!!!

Greenpeace is a joke - they've gone down the same wacked out far left path with the ACLU and the Sierra Club.

Governor Schwarzenegger is shooting himself in the foot!
This ban is wrong also in an overall energy savings perspective.


1.
Where there is a problem - deal with the problem!

Energy: there is no energy shortage
(given renewable/nuclear development possibilities, with set emission limits)
and consumers - not politicians - pay for energy and how they wish to use it.
Notice: If there was an energy shortage, its price rise would limit people using it anyway.
No need to legislate for it!


It might sound great to
"Let everyone save money by only allowing energy efficient products"

However:
Inefficient products that use more energy can have performance,
appearance and construction advantages
Examples (using cars, buildings, dishwashers, TV sets, light bulbs etc):
http://ceolas.net/#cc211x
For example, big plasma TV screens have image contrast and other
advantages along with their large image sizes.


Products using more energy usually cost less, or they'd be more energy
efficient already.
Depending on how much they are used, there might therefore not be any
running cost savings either.

Other factors contribute to a lack of savings:

If households use less energy,
then utility companies make less money,
and will just raise electricity prices to cover their costs.
So people don't save as much money as they thought.

Conversely,
energy efficiency in effect means cheaper energy,
so people just leave TV sets etc on more, knowing that energy bills are lower,
as also shown by Scottish and Cambridge research
http://ceolas.net/#cc214x

Either way, supposed energy - or money - savings aren't there.



2.
Taxation, while still wrong, is better than bans for all concerned.
This is not like a ban on dangerous lead paint!
It' simply a ban to (supposedly) reduce electricity consumption.
TV set taxation based on energy efficiency - unlike bans - gives
Governor Schwarzenegger's impoverished California Government income on
the reduced sales, while consumers keep choice.
This also applies generally,
to CARS, BUILDINGS, DISHWASHERS, LIGHT BULBS etc,
where politicians instead keep trying to define what people can or can't use.
Politicians can use the tax money raised to fund home insulation
schemes, renewable projects etc that lower energy use and emissions
more than remaining product use raises them.
Energy efficient products can have any sales taxes lowered, making
them cheaper than today.
People are not just hit by taxes, they don't have to buy the higher
taxed products - and at least they CAN still buy them.


----------------------
Why energy efficiency regulations are wrong,
whether you are for or against energy and emission conservation
http://ceolas.net/#cc2x
Summary
Politicians don't object to energy efficiency as it sounds too good to
be true. It is.
--The Consumer Side
Product Performance -- Construction and Appearance
Price Increase -- Lack of Actual Savings: Money, Energy or Emissions.
Choice and Quality affected
-- The Manufacturer Side
Meeting Consumer Demand -- Green Technology -- Green Marketing
--The Energy Side
Energy Supply -- Energy Security -- Cars and Oil Dependence
--The Emission Side
Buildings -- Industry -- Power Stations -- Light Bulbs and other
electrical products

I work as a stage hand and get to see the new technology before most other people do. I can tell you that the led tech that we are using is really amazing. It can color mix and has very precise color temperature and is dim-able. It also is very long lived, with one exception. LEDs don't like heat. It kills them deader than touching quartz lamp housings. This is the reason that it is still hard to get LED lamps that actually work as well as standard ones we currently use around the house. I have seen some and they are coming but it is going to be a while. I still like brutal quartz halogen lighting fixtures as well as HID.

I also agree about the BMW thing. I have driven them for over half a decade and I can't stand to drive anything else at night.
The indirect lighting is fantastic and with the LED sources it looks like you won't have to fix anything interior light wise any time soon.

Be fair about the ACLU. At least they will defend anyone that meets their mission statement. They have defended some pretty interesting and strange people. Not all of them were liberals.

Greenpeace are hypocrites and liars. Have been since the original founders lost control of the organisation. One of the guys was and still is a very good scientist. He got out early on when it became obvious that they weren't interested in actually fixing any of the problems that they complain about. All they care about now is accruing political clout so that they can parlay it into donations and fear monger respectable scientists into backing off or quitting. Unfortunately the Green movement in general has a lot of good facts but don't seem to want to actually deal with anything. The Liberal in me is quite sad about this.

Don't know anything recent about the Sierra Club. Last thing I heard was they were being controlled by some extremely conservative group that was using their credibility to manipulate Environmental Protection Laws or something. Even this sounded pretty far fetched so I stopped caring.

Brian.

Lots of commentary... I have no clue of Greenpeaces other agendas but the exxonsecrets site explains the shell game of intra-referencial obfuscation of fact by paid shills. Aka. Lieing to save Exxon profits.

No one in their right mind can argue against stemming the 350 billion a year leaving the country each year. To believe energy efficiency is not an effective way to think and act because it might be exploited is silly. Like to think the rich won't make more money because of taxes.

LED lights are still in their infancy, or maybe better. Watch some of "How things are made" and you quickly will realize it is manufacturing on the large scale, and quality management that will allow consumerization of those. Just as that put a mainframe+++ on a $2 chip.

As for LED traffic lights failing? I have no clue, but there must be a lot of foolish traffic engineers and city finance types who got fooled as they are very pervasive. I just saw my fist LED bulbs at Home Depot. Small expensive and claimed a 20 year life. But there and efficient.

Just as they are in LCD TVs. But they are their and can produce plasma level contrast levels at great efficiency.

BTW, what is killing new Nuclear energy is mostly the costs. Everything I am reading says the cost overruns are huge - before construction even starts. And there are other issues - like the possiblity of a serious accident hitting ground water. And while I am not anti-nuclear, don't tell me there have not been near misses in America, and certainly Chernobyl.

If we were to follow the French model, maybe it could work.

But, by far, simply conservation is a knock off first step. Like choosing to deliver TVs at home appropriate brightness instead of store level.