We had not planned on releasing this for some time, but the recent questions about HD DVD audio prompted Rodolfo and I to get this out to the public while it was most useful. I hope you find it so.
Topics covered include:
- Hi-bit Dolby Digital Formats - Connectivity
- Legacy Discrete Surround Audio Formats for Hi Def DVD
- Hi-bit Surround Audio Formats - Summary
- Hi-bit Audio Application to Hi-def DVD Formats
- Analysis
I did some quick research and it appears there is nothing out there yet that can decode Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus or DTS HD.
Is that true and if so any word on when and from whom?
I watched Serenity last night. Was I listening to the full effect of Dolby Digital Plus via my SPDIF audio connection or was I listening to the separate DD5.1? As noted by others this came out labeled as DTS on the receiver instead...
I do not know if I would qualify that article as great, it was a lot of work due to the unneeded complexity on this part of the industry that is now adding more confusion to an already complex HD video.
You are not receiving anything other than the classical DD or DTS over the SP/DIF connections, downconverted from the hi-bit, or if present directly from the disc.
In order to receive the hi-bit streams you need HDMI or the 6-8 analog RCA connections if you have them.
HDMI 1.3 will allow the player and the receiver to hand shake on the hi-bit stream version so the player or the receiver can do the decoding, HDMI 1.1 would transport PCM already decoded by the player to the receiver, and the receiver just pre and amp to the speakers.
As I mentioned on the article it would be a good excercise to review the players and discs specs to make sure you purchase what you expect.
I would not characterize your work as anything less than great regardless of how difficult it was to pull together. You excel at such things in my book and it is sad that it still remains a topic of lumpy gravy after your efforts!
So Dolby Digital Plus falls under HDMI requirements as well... Thanks.
I looked at your report and it states the Toshiba as HDMI 1.1 but in this article you state the HD audio formats require 1.3 yet the report states support for DD Plus and DTS HD. Are they confusing you and us?
What about...
I did some quick research and it appears there is nothing out there yet that can decode Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus or DTS HD. Is that true and if so any word on when and from whom?
I am starting to think I jumped in too quickly but on the other hand Serenity was way cool!
Any player that was built with just HDMI 1.1 ouputs CAN NOT output hi-bit "streamed" multichannel audio over such connection. Only HDMI 1.3 can do that, look at the 1.3 specs on the digital connectivity section on the report, the last two paragraphs.
Outputting in streaming mode a hi-bit format is only adding the alternative of external decoding by a receiver/pre-pro which would do the job (if it also has HDMI 1.3 chip receiver and the decoding circuitries on it), but it does not mean that the hidef player canot decode it itself.
The Toshiba and others that are suited with just 1.1 can decode the hibit formats and pass the decoded signal as separate PCM channels to the receiver for it to handle each channel separately (as with DVD-Audio using the analog connections).
The receiver is just a slave for pre/amplification of multiple channels arriving separately on that setup.
However, if a player was designed for just 2CH decoding of Dolby True-HD is not much one can do, the player does not decode the 7.1 hibit and the receiver neither.
Regarding your question of other players with other decoding capabilities, yes they are, look at the specs of several blu-ray players on the hi-def DVD section of the report, and my analysis at the end that discusses exactly that subject when selecting a player.
Regarding your purchase of the Toshiba that you said it was too early, I would say not for people like you that are looking for break-ground technology to experiment all the time.
I would not consider that player as THE PLAYER to keep though, blu-ray must be given room for demo, as well as HDMI 1.3, non-Token discs, multiple codecs decoding within the player (at 7.1 not just 2CH Tru-HD minimum requirement), etc, This year after blu-ray shows up will allow you to determine which player will stay firm in your HT.
Enjoy you player today, it is the beauty of being an early adopter.
I concur with Richard. The article was great because not only did it inform, it also hightighted the fact that the largest disaster the A/V industry has ever perprated is about to confirm lessons learned in the vhs/beta, dvd-a/sacd debacles with one major difference for the manufacturers.
Regarless of whether people bought a vhs or a beta they bought a recorder which was a new technology and made life better. Regrarless of whether they bought a dvd-a/sacd or combi, they bought a dvd player which made life better.
If less than 25% of the North American population knows or understants that the the analog to digital switch is going to be flipped in 3 years and they Already Have a DVD, player how are they going to act/react/understand the info Rodolfo just meticulously outlined.
I have a Denon 5803 which has audio capabilities for software that has yet to hit the market. It also has 2 full sets of 8ch analogs which are presently being used by mltidisc dvd-a and mltidisc sacd players. It has digital inputs marked "for future audio formats".
I also have a 2001 Tosh 65h80 with component only inputs.
I use an SDI modified Panny rp82 which sends it's 480i signal to a PC based vid scaler which converts everything to a fully ISF'd 1080i input.
I use a timbre matched 9 speaker array which is spl balanced. I do not use my 5803 for video switching so I listen to everything in "Pure Direct" which cuts off all vid circuitry and for film I'm partial to THX ULTRA CINEMA II which sounds out of this world. My SA8300hd cable decoder /pvr connected to my fully ISF'd second component input allows me to A/B my scaled dvds with HD recorded content. Anyone I've showed this experiment to agrees that the HD recording is marginally better.
I love to listen to music and watch video and film for the sound of the music and the story/experience provided by the video.
I have a large dvd collection and over 300 dvd-a/sacd discs.
If we put aside for a moment that neither my display or my processor have HDMI in/outputs which puts my equipment at an immediate disadvantage, what do these new formats have that I should be excited about?
Seems you and I both might be set using the analog inputs. Well kinda, I guess you need a third... I will have to check mine in more detail but it appears only the HDXA1 has any processing for speaker setup on the analog outs or is it just that it claims to do it with better processing?
Still confused over Dolby TrueHD. The article states multichannel support. The DVD players state they are limited to 2 CH Dolby TrueHD only. Phantom of the Opera is labeled as Dolby TrueHD 2CH only. That threw me for a loop! So this HD DVD title is SD Multichannel but will never be Dolby TrueHD multi channel unless re-released? How in the world did they come up with this scenario for a new release and new equipment that should be providing us with examples of it's full potential to create a buzz?
This reminds me so much of the DVD Audio confusion and 1st generation players which severly diminished excitement!
In my perfect world the new discs would be backwords compatible with my Panny at 480i which I would scale and the new audio formats would be passed through to my Denon through the analogs where I would apply THX processing.
In my other dream someone would build an 80" CRT rptv with 9" guns and a HDMI input.
Before they disapeared comp;etely I just bought my wife a 30" crt Panny with a HDMI input $940cdn allincl (presently being used by the SA8300hd Rogers Cable decoder/pvr. Michael TLV was in TO at the time and made sure that he could access the calibration progs before I fully committed.
Regarding HIREZ music formats my sense is that this is the lull before the explosion.
Apple donated MACs to the education community years ago which was a marketing coup.
Assuming that the SQ of both formats is equal in most minds, the biggest problem that mltich faces is that few are willing to sit in the sweet spot for extended periods.
The manufacturers of boxes think that their market is people. They are wrong. It is The Autombile. Even my 84 year old mother who could easily take the plane from Montreal to Toronto to visit us insists that I drive her. Why, because I'm a captive audience that has to listen to her. (God bless her).
Now that DualDisc exists and the costs of cd and dvd players are about the same to make, every new vehicle made should come with the latter.
Hello Rodolfo, I really enjoy your article & find them very useful & infomative. I have a question budging me for quite some time & need to seek clarification.
Recently, I read for a different forum there's a HDMI newest version 2. This new version superceed previous version & I want to know how it will affect us consumers. I just bought my 42" HDTV in Jan & I don't even know what's my HDMI HDMI version is. It's not stated in the manual.
Also, I was told some of the earlier HDMI version may not be compatible with future HD DVD or BD players. Hope you could enlighten this matter. Thanks & regards.
I am glad you found the article useful and informative, thanks for the kind words.
Regarding audio:
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HDMI 1.2 does not comply with the hi-bit new audio codecs (Dolby True-HD, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD), but yes with SACD and DVD-Audio. You need to wait for 1.3 for that (a few months), but version 1.2 is capable of several upgrades over 1.1, the complete detail is on the 2006 report (section of digital connectivity).
HDMI 1.1 does not comply with the new hi-bit audio codecs either.
Regarding video:
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From version 1 the HDMI specification is capable to transport 1080p but some first generation chips made available to manufacturers a couple of years ago were designed as non-1080p compliant, to meet the requirements (and cost shaving) of the non-1080p world of that monent, which required 720p and 1080i only.
The 2006 report also covers the capabilities and specs of most HDMI chips released by Silicon Image on a dedicated section, so one can research what to expect from the chip your equipment has, that is if you are lucky enough to have the engineering dept giving you the chip identification (VERY unlikely to happen to a consumer).
In other words, we consumers never win, so enjoy what you have to the best your tolerance of not knowing would allow you.
Here is the summary of the specs of HDMI 1.2:
HDMI Licensing, 1.2 specification
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The licensing agent announced in August 2005 the release of the v1.2 HDMI specification that according to the company includes:
-- Support for One Bit Audio format, such as SuperAudio CD's DSD (Direct Stream Digital)
-- Changes to offer better support for current and future PCs with HDMI outputs, including:
- Availability of the widely-used HDMI Type A connector for PC sources and displays with full support for PC video formats
- Ability for PC sources to use their native RGB color-space while retaining the option to support the YCbCr CE color-space
- Requirement for HDMI 1.2 and later displays to support future low-voltage (i.e., AC-coupled) sources, such as those based on PCI Express I/O technology
-- A minor modification to the electrical specification to ensure compatibility of current and future HDMI receivers with a low voltage, AC coupled transmitter (for example, a transmitter in an integrated graphics chip)
As always, products implementing the HDMI 1.2 specification will be fully backwards compatible with earlier HDMI products.
Regarding your question about compatibility of earlier HDMI versions with future HD DVD and BD players:
Depends of what is your interest.
In video
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Any version should be compliant and supportive of up to 1080p (except for the early chips above, NOT THE STANDARD, WHICH IS CAPABLE). So any version player to any version receiver/TV should be able to hand shake to transport HD video at any resolution up to 1080p.
A future 1080p player with 1.3 should hand shake with a 1.1 HDMI on the TV for 1080p video purposes. Tthat is if the TV "accepts" 1080p, most do not, but not because of the HDMI chip or spec, is because the manufacturer of the equipment limited the circuitry by design.
In audio
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As I mentioned above, a 1.3 future player streaming out hi-bit audio would NOT handshake with a receiver with a 1.1 chip to handle the transport of streamed hi-bit, for the purpose of alternative hi-bit decoding on the receiver, which most probably would not have decoding circuitry anyway, so why bother.
So the HDMI handshake of 1.3 to 1.1 can still be used for outputing the individual PCM of the 7.1 channels decoded by the player (which is not streaming out). Check the subject in the article if you are looking for that alternative, which is going to be the alternative most used by all the owners of HDMI non1.3 receivers (other than the analog multiple wires).
Thanks so much Rodolfo for the detailed explanation. Took me to read a few times just to make sure all info is digested properly! Really helps me a lot!
If I plug in a conventional dvd it automatically switches back to THX Ultra Select 2 which is correct. Then if I eject the conventional dvd and put in the HD-DVD (such as Serenity), the receiver once again automatically switches to the SACD mode (THX Musicmode)...The difference is dramatic...so it must be working.
I think I am getting confused by two terms here. Streaming and decoding.
What the above example cannot do is send any of the HD DVD HD Audio bitstreams to the receiver and have the receiver decode it into the individual digital channels and than A/D convert it for output. Right?
In the above example the user is getting the full benefit of HD DVD HD Audio as decoded by the source into the individual channels and delivered digitally to the receiver for D/A conversion. This is equal to using the 5.1 analog outputs and inputs for multi-channel; Basically you are choosing either analog or digital for this connection. Right?
If you choose digital then you likely will have access to speaker setup and bass management but if analog those features have to come from the source, hence the HDXA1 version which provides this. Or do both players provide the feature and the more expensive model is supposed to perform better when using that feature?
A streamed signal expects the receiving device to decode and break out the channels for processing and amplification.
Decoding transforms the multi-channel stream into individual channels that can be handled by pre/amps sections for their function to amplify the line level audio to speaker level outputs. In that the pre also performs DSP, etc.
HDMI 1.3 allows streaming hi-bit audio out of Hidef players for external decoding, BUT WITHOUT THE AUDIO ADDITIONS OF THE MIX (unless the player has an additional encoder stage within it to add those audio mixes over the stream before the signal is out of the player).
HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 allows transporting the channels after they are converted (decoded) to PCM, the player does the decoding of the stream and adds the mixes to it, the pre/pro just receives the channels, no streams.
I can not recall seeing a spec for the expensier player claiming to improve bass management, etc. over the $499 model, I listed the differences between them as provided by Toshiba on the report, I believe that was not one of them (remote, open door, etc etc).
I would not spend $800 on a 1080i only HD DVD player when I can get a 1080p output from a Blu-ray player in a month for $200 more, unless Toshiba releases their second gen with 1080p outputs at a decent price and timing competitive with with the Blu-ray options.
There are many more coditions to check for the right selection of player and format, all that is part of my analysis on the dedicated section on the report, such as supported hi-bit codecs, you are facing one in your own LR with just 2CH True-HD decoding.
Odd how the video is actually easier than the audio on this...
I think I am finally getting my head wrapped around this HD DVD HD audio format.
As for the HDXA1, from Shane...
On the audio side, the XA1 has four high performance DSP engines which allow not only for audio conversion, but also improved audio signal management (user selectable crossovers, delay management, and channel level management). Of course, if you're using a separate receiver or audio component to do this processing, there's no advantage.
I agree and am not going to spend more for that. Would be wiser to upgrade the receiver to HDMI digital multichannel input I would think and worry about the streams later down the line.
As a relative new comer to HT, I have been scouring the web for useful information on hi-def DVD formats, audio codecs, HDMI specs, etc. You series on HDMI and multi-channel audio were extremely useful and I have read the multi-channel audio document no less than 5 times to make sure I grasped it all. I consider myself pretty adept at technology and this is confusing stuff, the average consumer is going to be lost for years. I digress.....
Few questions :
1) Part of the HD DVD vs Blu-Ray comparison has got to be supported audio codecs. As HD DVD approved Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD as mandatory while Blu-Ray only approved legacy formats 5.1 DD and DTS. While many Blu-Ray DVDs may be produced with the optional hi-def audio formats, to me, this gives the clear advantage to HD DVD in the audio category. Am I putting this together correctly?
2) Are there a simple good, better, best title that can be applied to Dolby True-HD, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD or is is not that simple?
3) HDMI 1.3. I know this is covered in your multi-channel audio document but I would like to confirm it. In terms of audio, the advantage of having HDMI 1.3 on the player and receiver is letting the receiver do the audio decoding. Will there be a significant audio advantage to this or is this a "nice to have" in terms of flexibility (vs running decoded signals into the reciever over HDMI 1.1? I am clear there is an advantage vs running decoded signals over 8 analog cables with many conversions between the disk and your ears).
One would argue (not for long) that 1) the hi-def DVD war will need to be over before purchasing either format and a compatible receiver or 2) buy a receiver that has the CLEAR capability to handle all audio codecs published today and video .
I am glad you benefitted with the articles, that was exactly the purpose of my writting, but people has to read, most do not, you read it five times, ti which I say, Wow, and also, sorry, but the subject is a mess to start with.
Let me provide you with a response to each of the 3 questions you made:
A) An advantage of either format because in one format some codecs are mandated while the other are optional?, good point, it could be, but that would go away with HDMI 1.3 and A/V receivers/pre/pros with 1.3 inputs and decoders into them.
I would say the advantage could only be in the initial phase of the formats if a player manufacturer wanted to cut costs and did not include the optional codec you want, but if that approach goes for long one can always find a way out in the A/V receiver end, and still but the format for its overall value to you not for mandated codecs.
At this moment there are several features that were partially implemented in both formats, but they are gradually being incorporated in the 2nd generation models, and discs (combos).
B) DTS was always better than Dolby, starting by the higher bit rate, but now both with their hi-bit formats, they both claim they are bit-per-bit equal to the original (if you trust manufacturers).
Without having a facility to compare side by side both it would be unprofessional for me to comment either way, but my gut feeling is that DTS would sound better even on this hi-end level.
DD Plus was not designed to compete with the other two formats, so you can put DD Plus following the other 2.
C) HDMI 1.3 will soon have a pass-thru feature for hi-bit streams that would allow them to go directly from the disc to the player outputs (for external decoding), which means that no conversion, touching, processing of any kind would be applied to that signal. Any time you do any of that manipulation we all know that there is degradation of some kind.
Since the inception of redundant circuitry on any audio/video system there was and will be chips that perform better than others, in addition to the risk one runs when performing unnecessary conversions just for the signal to get from one piece of equipment to the other to find compatibility.
I believe that having the option of additional codecs on the receiver end is better than not having them, unless the extra cost of those surpasses the benefit and flexibility.
One has to remember that when DD was implemented many years ago it was a good idea to have the receiver as the nucleous of decoding because the many pieces of source equipment (DVD, HD cable tuner, OTA tuner, satelite tuner, etc) would not have to have it duplicated into them in addition to having to transport multi-analog cables rather than one with the undecoded DD stream.
That represented a savings in the overall system cost by having one decoder and simpler cables, but it better be a good one. Now Hi def DVD players (and games) are the only source of hi-bit codecs so it is not anymore an obvious saving from the circuitry duplicity point of view, and HDMI 1.3 could carry the stream and the PCM decoded version as well in one wire.
It also depends of the quality of the playing equipment and the receiving equipment, one would want the better quality equipment to perform decoding (unless to get to that good decoding a lot of previous signal manipulation would risk the signal quality upon arrival).
Hello - thank you for a great article. I found it while looking to see if there was any sort of bidirectional audio capability in HDMI.
Is there anything in the standards that would support the data island equivalent of an audio input i.e. Line In, Microphone In etc.? Or is it, as it seems to be, strictly a system to supply high quality audio that goes in the same direction as the video?
I am not sure what is your plan about using HDMI for your audio connection, but the connection was created for HD audio/video "secured" transport in one direction only.
However, the handshake activity between sender and receiver HDMI chips is constantly bi-directional for a) content protection and b) verification and adaptation of the sender to the receiver capabilities (i.e., a TV receiver HDMI chip telling to the sender's HDMI chip that it accepts only 2-channel from a 5.1 source).
I will have to check mine in more detail but it appears only the HDXA1 has any processing for speaker setup on the analog outs or is it just that it claims to do it with better processing?
