HD DVD or Blu-ray: My Choice is...?

Thanks for your insights, Richard. I fall into the same catagory as you - but I picked DVD Audio instead of SACD and the few new CD's coming out in surround format are SACD......

Now, history may repeat itself. I've been taking HD video for some years - starting with the JVC 30 frame camera and now have two Sony 1080i60s.....But after editing, it's a pain to dump the edited version back to tape and then have to run it on your TV system with the camera. So, regular old DVDs, made with Sony Vegas and DVD Architect.

Now, the new versions of these software programs support BluRay (surprise, it is Sony software......). However, even though Sony offers a couple of laptops with bluray burners, they are not making one available thus far for those of us who only recently built a new laptop especially for editing.

Of course, there is an external burner. At, what, around 600 bucks. And then, of course, need a player for the TV system at another 500-600. It really is disgusting.

Why doesn't someone come out with an external burner that connects via firewire to your computer and then can be unplugged, and taken to your tv system and outputted there via HDMI (or for those of us who were in the forefront, Component Video, since my wonderful old Pioneer 50" plasma has just one component input......)??

I think you may be absolutely correct, the price is way too high and many people are perfectly happy with their SD DVD player. It might just die stillborn. Unless Sony is willing to take some hits and get equipment on the market that is affordable.....

Geez....

Jerry

I love high fidelity surround sound and have an equal number of SACDs and DVD-A disks in my collection. I will continue to buy from whomever continues to release (preferably in the ROCK category!).

As for the video Hi-Def, I have chosen Blu-Ray primarily because that is the format that seems to have the most of what I want to watch.

So, ultimately, technologies being approximately equal, I will always choose whichever offers the most/best content!

The reason the price is so high, is exactly why the problem continues to fester: nobody's buying either - except for Sony's Play Station - and there it's a case of getting the only thing available. However, if Sony thought that would be a selling point for PS, they found out differently. Wii is beating them to pieces, and it has nothing to do with a High Definition DVD player, or lack of one. If - and when - somehow - one format is finally chosen, and that becomes the way most DVD's are produced, the price will drop exactly like it did when SD DVD's took off.

As for me, I have over-the-air TV in HD and HD from Dish Network. It may only be 1080i, but I can still see a difference between it and SD DVD. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Never will I buy a High Definition DVD player until there's one format. I can watch movies in HD by copying them onto my USB-connected additional disk drive(s) connected to the Dish DVR and storing them there. Keeping track is something of a nose bleed, but they're on disk and in HD. I don't need HD DVD until there's only one format, and then I'll make DVD's from the ones I like I've already copied - whatever the format.

I agree with you Richard. I choose to only get HD-DVD because of price. I was able to pick up a player for only $200.00 and I already had NetFlix so I could rent the movies. But, I miss being able to get some of my favorite movies (The Fifth Element for one). I just cannot bring myself to spend more then $200.00 for a player.

I CHOOSE HD-DVD, BUT THEN I CHOSE DVD-AUDIO AND QUADRAPHONICS (IN THE 70's).
iS THE THIRD GEN OF tOSHIBA hd-dvd OUT?
I WANT 7.1 VIA HDMI 1.3a [?ONKYO TX- 875 SR].
I want 24 fps and 30 fps.
Does the 3rd gen have that? at what price for 1080p?
fpnovak

FP, you sound like my kind of guy. I did 8 track quad sound, then the RCA Quad discs, the DVD Audio, you name it, I bought the wrong one - so if our friends here want one or other format to win, just ask us to buy the other one. Haha. You already have. Should we be buying Sony stock???

Jerry

Hi Richard,
I also am an audiophile (from the 70's era) and quality was and is the first thing I pick up on with most electronic devices from this era.I used to have a Crown DC300A power amp,4 Original Advent Loudspeakers stacked and wired in series,a Technics base,SME Tonearm,and AKG cartridge.I still can't find anything today that sounded as nice as that vinyl set-up.Kids today have no idea of how good music can sound when properly mastered and played through great equipment.I have an Onkyo Integrated amp from the 80's that I still use and when I started to think about "upgrading" to a new amp the salesman told me to forget about as no new Onkyo he was selling would sound as good.I know there is good quality out there,but it's mostly in the form of small very expensive boutique manufacturers.After a lot of reading, I've learned to lower my expectations on what to expect from today's electronics made for the mass market.None of them come close to matching the quality that was mass marketed in the 70's!Keep up the good writing as it helps a recovering audiophile like myself...LOL

I would like everyone to consider that there are four choices possible here, not two: blue, red, both, and neither. It would appear you have, in fact, made a choice: both.

Another consideration is that if consumers are deciding, then content trumps format. Consumers want the MOVIE, and for a reasonable price. They don't care about format, profile 1.1, interactive features, or which disc can potentially hold more. The picture and sound are the same for either format.

Combine these two considerations together, and then consider that because of the interference of the movie studios there are going to be a lot of people picking both players, because they want to buy and experience movies only available in a single format.

These are the current dynamics that just entrench the format war for even longer. The attempt by the format camps to have movies studios back a single format has backfired and now it's forcing people to choose both formats. That IS a valid choice.

A columnist for CNBC just posted an article discussing HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray and put a poll at the end and included the "neither" option but forgot to include the "both" option. It's important to try to get everyone to think about the "both" choice and how it affects the format war.

Thanks for listening.

Hello, Richard. Nice article and I agree with a lot of your major points. This "format war" is far from over and, unlike some others who are troubled by it, I am completely enjoying the ride (and the benefits that a format war brings to those of us who own players of both types (I currently have 3 HD-DVD players - an XA2, an A1 and a Xbox360 add-on - and 2 Blu-ray players - a PS3, still the best BR player, and a Panasonic BD10A). As a fellow "bleeding edger" it was a no brainer that I'd have both formats when they first came out because that's what I do. SONY made it easier for me (I had HD-DVD first) since I could rationalize the purchase of a BR player with the PS3 (which I play very few games on.) And the major reason for adopting both HD formats is actually more for audio than for video. True, HD looks better than SD for DVDs - and your point that the difference between HD discs and SD discs is not as dramatic as the difference between HD TV and SD TV is spot on - but the difference in audio quality of HD discs and SD discs is, to me, a major step forward. It's the same reason why I prefer SACD and DVD-A to redbook CD. And yet, many regular folk don't understand what I get so excited about since they are fine with CDs (and even tolerate the reduced audio resolution of the iPod generation!)

And why do I applaud a "format war" this time around compared to other past wars? Lots of reasons. For one thing, this is not really a beta vs. VHS thing for a simple reason - the combo player with a single mechanism (not realistically possible with videotape in the day) is a reality in the HD/BR battle. There are already players out there that play both formats (as well as SDs, CDs and - at least theoretically SACD and DVD-A if all the bickering is put aside) and the number of these hybrid players will increase the longer this war persists. If prices drop low enough for combo players (they will, based on past history) then a format war is a moot point. You have a machine. It plays BR and HD so who cares if one goes away. It becomes all about the content (as it should.) Yes, right now it's cheaper to purchase separate machines (you can do it for under $500 total when the least expensive combo player is still more than that) but this will also change. And even that $500 figure isn't beyond the reach of many of us. Heck, I paid almost $1500 for my first Betamax and that was in 1975 dollars! $500 is a bargain under those circumstances. However two machines is still going to turn off the large majority of consumers so we either need one format or the combo machines going mainstream. My prediction is that the combo machines will make the "war" moot.

Another reason why the format wars isn't bothering me (as a two format owner) are the amazing price wars now going on. Blu-ray, while claiming technical superiority (but largely undelivering on that promise until now with no real standards for machine requirements out of the gate and a larger disc capacity advantage that disappeared this week with the new HD-DVD 51gig media) is obviously panicking with their "buy one, get one free" promos all over the place to maintain their SW "lead" (a questionable lead because we are talking about a drop in the bucket in total media sales). I just purchased 30 Blu-ray titles from Amazon for an average price of $9 and change each - delivered to my door second day mail included! Those who know about the benefits of Amazon Prime membership and their 10% discount on HD media for early adopters know about this. It was actually far cheaper to by the BR version than the SD version of many titles. With a single format, these price wars, not to mention the format wars, will be history. And the price of HD-DVD players wouldn't have dropped well below $200 (even cracking $100!) so early without a "war." I chuckle when people claim that the format war isn't good for the "consumer." It isn't good for the manufacturers and studios because so many people are confused by the choices (those who know that HD media outside of HD broadcasts even exists) but don't tell me that combo players, cheap players and price wars for discs is "bad" for consumers.

Finally, while I understand that some people are so turned off by another format war that they are not going to buy anything "until there is a clear winner" many people who should know better are cutting off their nose to spite their face in my opinion. There's a lot of great HD content out there right now at extremely reasonable prices (thanks to the "war") and it's not only the video that's better - the audio is light years better when played on a system that can take advantage of the lossless and uncompressed codecs now on just about every disc from both formats.

To me the war was over the minute I purchased both machines. The combo player makes this even a better argument for those who hate multiple boxes. I'm enjoying the best picture and sound on the same discs today and not looking back.

Incidentally, those who fear obsolescence seem to overlook the fact that obsolescense only occurs when media rots or players become impossible to get. I'm still enjoying vinyl that I purchased a half-century ago so this is definitely not a beta vs. VHS "war." It's all about searching for the most perfect media and presentation available.

I would like everyone to consider that there are four choices possible here, not two: blue, red, both, and neither. It would appear you have, in fact, made a choice: both.

Gee, never looked at it that way since most folks want a winner declared but you are indeed correct, I did make a choice and so did rfowkes. Thanks for the other two choices most of us overlook as a choice!

I appreciate all the comments and was greatly surprised how most related to HD audio, SACD and DVD Audio.

I love high fidelity surround sound and have an equal number of SACDs and DVD-A disks in my collection. I will continue to buy from whomever continues to release (preferably in the ROCK category!).

Hallelujah! It is the lack of rock and pop titles that turned me away. Not that I don't like classical but over the years I have become quite picky about the orchestra, the conduction and how the sonic event was captured. I have some very special favorites on that front most notably Beethoven interpreted by Christopher Hogwood and The Academy of Ancient Music. If he is correct Beethoven and other composers understood rhythm and beat just like a rock and roller in which case the romantic interpretations of the 20th century have done more bad than good for classical. Hogwood keeps your toes, fingers and brain tapping to the beat and it is a fantastic experience of the classical genre bringing new insight and respect for Beethoven!

However, if Sony thought that would be a selling point for PS, they found out differently. Wii is beating them to pieces, and it has nothing to do with a High Definition DVD player, or lack of one.

My son bought a Wii and it truly is a phenomenal experience! While graphics and sound are cool the Wii provides something other game consoles don't; a simplistic and intuitive control interface. I have not seen one person yet not smile and get into the gaming experience called Wii. On the other hand if you are into performance gaming it is clearly limited...

fpnovak, HD audio streams via HDMI are here. Toshiba HD-A30 review in process... $399 MSRP!

ButchieK, all audiophiles feel your pain... There isn't much music in the current music that is being offered and TV has replaced music as the background buzz of choice for most folks. I don't know if the days of sitting down and simply listening and focusing to music for an hour or two like a movie or TV show will ever return.... With what is being offered in hardware and content there is every reason to doubt it will. I wonder if this is not the progress of all things that become everyday commodities; they lose their luster and uniqueness and we slowly but surely lose our passion. I hear so many people watch movies while doing other stuff so maybe Hollywood is our next passion to lose... In this house a movie remains an event of reckoning!

Since there was so much comment about music I'll throw out a bone... either HD video format could provide it if only there was worthy content and a market...

BTW, great HD DVD article from my colleague Shane Sturgeon. There is a lot to like about the HD DVD camp while Blu-ray is still figuring it out...

Which is More Consumer Friendly: HD DVD or Blu-ray?
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/20 ... lu-ray.php

I would disagree. Both formats deliver the same experience. Why is it Blu-Ray and PS3 fans always talk about future development that will show how superior BD is? That is because there really isn't a compelling performance advantage for BD or PS3 now. You will pay more for BD and get the same movie experience. The extra storage space will largely go un-used because both formats will get the same movie with slightly different content.

You write:
"HD disc does not even remotely provide the same level of perceived performance improvement that broadcast HDTV does compared to broadcast NTSC; that one was a no-brainer."

That statement makes no sense. SD TV equals NTSC, and HD TV equals ATSC HD Broadcast. HD DVD and BD both exceed HDTV so how can you say these new formats are not a huge jump in performance? HDTV is also just arriving in the mass market, but in the future all new TV's will be HDTV so the new formats will naturally be purchased more often.

Most consumers don't know or care about 1080p/60 or 1080p/24. But they do know a good value. Anyone looking for a good price should walk by BD, and pick up the real value in HD DVD.

You write:
"HD disc does not even remotely provide the same level of perceived performance improvement that broadcast HDTV does compared to broadcast NTSC; that one was a no-brainer."

That statement makes no sense.

Per statisticians in the marketing industry, to replace any old technology with new technology in which the only real difference is the experience, broadcast TV, there has to be a 5 times improvement in consumer perception. The new technology has to perform 5 times or more better in quality to capture the passion of the mass market.

That leaves convenience as the only remaining factor for a consumer to make the change.

HDTV met that challenge in spades compared to broadcast NTSC; even with an old TV that isn't HD capable you will get a DVD like experience!

HD disc is not perceptually five times better than SD DVD and as for watching the main feature there is no difference in convenience. As noted by ALL users, currently HD disc is actually less convenient due to slower boot up times along with the frustrating bumps and pot holes along the way that come with any new technology. An audio and video system that can fully utilize the capability of these new formats costs far more than just the player...

I don't see how you can say HD video on the new DVD formats isn't 5 times better than SD DVD. I will not even watch my old DVD's now that I have HD DVD. Video quality alone is enough to sell me on HD DVD. HDTV and the next gen DVD formats are all sold with "six times the resolution" sales pitch. I am thinking the increase in video quality moves Hi-Def DVD a lot closer to a 5 time improvement over current DVD.


Yes the machines are a little slow because of all of the additional processing going on under the hood. No one ever waited for early DVD drives to boot, but it is clear from the startup times on all next gen players that they have a lot of boot time. I don't see this as a huge issue, and it should improve as the designs are refigned. If you want to judge stictly by convenience because of long startup time then yes that is a minus.

HDTV met that challenge in spades compared to broadcast NTSC; even with an old TV that isn't HD capable you will get a DVD like experience!

Again this makes no sense. DVD is NTSC TV. I am not impressed by 480i on a regular television, or 480P on an HDTV. Old NTSC is supposed to give a "DVD like experience" since DVD predates ATSC (HD) it is obviously NTSC (SD). If you watch old DVD on an HDTV you don't see HDTV; you see all ugly NTSC quality video stretched to fit a larger HDTV. HDTV is going to replace SDTV by February 2009. Everyone will buy HDTV eventually and most of them will want all HD video sources. Sure some will always say it's good enough, but most will never want to see SDTV again. That need for HD content means HD cable, HD satellite, and HD DVD's too.

All video starts life as full bandwidth RGB for the system it is being mastered for. From there it is compressed via analog or digital means to make it fit within the bandwidth or space it was designed for distribution.

NTSC is based on composite video and carries the greatest penalties of any form of compression. This is a nasty process that used analog compression to make it all fit in the same space as the b/w TV of the time. As good as Laserdisc was the use of NTSC composite video was it's greatest flaw. There is no scaler on the planet that can separate the color from the luminance and correct the all the artifacts this signal standard created. Once these two signals are mixed for NTSC the destruction is final. At this point we have not even broadcast this signal which adds another layer of very nasty imaging artifacts that will vary by your location and antenna. On displays 25" or smaller at the typical 8-15 times viewing distance it worked great and the public ate it up! Our displays got bigger, lots bigger, and that is where the trouble began starting with the Klipsch Nova beam CRT front projector in the mid 70s for consumers and business and their 50" screens.

S-video uses the same signal level standards as composite but the color and luminance (b/w signal) are split, hopefully at the source. This connection on a laserdisc player never had the value many thought because the signal on the disc is NTSC. S-VHS and prerecorded movies on the other hand could have an advantage as the color and luminance are laid down on the tape separately (signal to noise ratio for color though was much worse than laserdisc). The color signal in this form has twice the resolution of NTSC and no artifacts related to mixing them and separating them.

DVD use the same signal level standards as NTSC but the color signal is closer to the RGB source using another form of analog compression to create an RGB color signal using only two channels, Cb and Cr, what we call component video. 480I component uses NTSC signal levels. This provides nearly 4 times the color resolution of NTSC by not being analog compressed into a single color signal. NTSC and DVD are not even remotely the same in terms of high fidelity.

HDTV uses the same signal levels standards of NTSC for everything except video levels. NTSC requires a 7.5 IRE black level offset and HDTV recovers that for a greater dynamic range using the full 0-100IRE video signal level. Like DVD the color signal is component but in this case due to the different levels we call that Pb and Pr. all 480p sources and inputs are setup for these video levels and that includes upscaling 480i DVD to 480p.

Going from analog NTSC composite broadcast video to digital HDTV component video is a momentous leap not only in delivery via radio waves but also in circuitry removing numerous conversion and compression schemes that NTSC required. The only way to get closer is to provide true RGB signals but that would require more bandwidth and storage space. With HDTV we are only 1-2 steps away from the original source rather than 10-15!

This created what marketers call a 5 times perceptual improvement for the mass market. Personally I'll go with 1000 times better and there simply is no comparison that can be made!

If they call that 5 times better than I'll say HD disc is 1-2 times better than properly scaled SD DVD. Based on the above the only difference between SD DVD and HDTV or HD disc is resolution and nothing else. Resolution though never was the key element in the HDTV transition; the key was artifacts related to noise and clarity and that is what sold the public on DVD as well! While resolution is a function of clarity, artifacts related to noise and signal processing are far more apparent to the mass market and typical in the industry. Some of these artifacts remain, namely edge enhancement.

I have compared The Fifth Element on Blu-ray and Superbit DVD with quality performance players, both discs mastered for the best delivery and the ONLY difference is resolution and image depth. The affect of this will vary greatly depending on the system used, viewing distance and the trained eye. if you can't perceive it this won't matter. If you can perceive it then your system and the way you use it will make the difference you perceive anywhere from none existent or subtle to visually and audibly beneficial worthy of your investment. Based on HD audio we are in the same territory and that is one where the difference will not have the same impact for most users because it simply is not great enough.

If you see so much difference than you are not the typical user. The ones that need convincing are not those spending money on performance products and using them properly; it is the thousands more that buy mass market performance and use it improperly adding to the problem making the difference between SD DVD and HDTV quite small indeed. Indeed, it's SACD and DVD Audio all over again except for one major difference; video attributes are far easier to point out and discuss - I can show you a difference by pointing at the screen where with audio you have to be capable of hearing a difference that we can only relate to in words.

You want to stick with DVD you go ahead. I want HD content for my HD TV. I am not waiting around for some arbitrary performance barrier to be smashed. We are talking about HDTV in general, and it isn't going anywhere. HD is a market on the rise, and the big waves haven't even started. I can't wait around for you people to decide on a standard. You are nit picking about slow perfomance comparing early HD DVD and Blu-Ray players to mature DVD products. From a computing stand point there is a lot more processing going on in a new HD player. Do you think Toshiba and Sony are using the most powerful processors on the market? No they are using the cheapest that will get the job done. Sony and Toshiba will also improve performance through firmware upgrades. Did you ever upgrade the firmware on your DVD movie player? I updated my HD-A2 twice already, and I expect more in the future. A firmware upgrade shows the new players are much more like a full computer for better or worse. The performance benefit for the new formats is in the video and audio quality. They will get better, and they will come down in price, but there will not be a huge change in the design of the players.

I don't know why you have taken a combative and argumentative approach to this article and the detailed explanation your post inspired. I chose both formats, clearly not sticking with DVD...

You are correct I was being a little combative. For that I apologize. The whole format war Blu-Ray V HD DVD, and don't forget Xbox 360 V PS3 makes me a little edgy. I see a lot of silly partisan comments from both sides. People making statements about technology they don't fully understand.

I do not include you in this group. It is obvious that you and Dale are both thoughtful and informed.

The comparison should be between an average DVD on an average DVD player and an average HD DVD or Blu Ray on an average HD DVD or Blu-Ray player, not a Super-Bit DVD. Most DVDs are not Super-Bit and most users do not see them.

http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/overview.html

HD DVD "Six times the picture quality of standard formats."

I think the increase in resolution makes a huge difference in image quality. HD TV is a "visual" medium so this should count for a lot in my book. I have a 48" HD TV and I watch from 7 feet away. I can see the difference between DVD and HD DVD. I just purchased all the Harry Potter movies on HD DVD and for me it is like seeing these fun movies for the first time.

I haven

The only down side is the studios are trying to force us to pick one or the other.

Answering to the point that generic users don't see the difference - my 85 year old, kinda fuzzy mother did a "holy sh..." when she saw the HD signal on her new LCD tv (and still beat me for spending $2k).

Then again my wife - who buys our TVs - gets pissed if I interrupt a show or game long enough to switch the channel from SD to HD (but is pleasantly quiet with HD on).

In general everyone I have show HD too has been awestruck. You just have to break through the attention barrier long enough to get them to actually notice what they are watching. Life is pretty busy and full of our own orbits. But once we stop to smell the roses (see, listen to HD), it is appreciated.

Thus I think there will be a large surge and appreciation of hd DVD once the TVs are out there and the cost has been absorbed. And once there, price and market penetration (brand identity) will be the key factors. For example the fact (supposedly) that BR discs are 'greener' never gets mentioned. Price/value is always mentioned.

I like HD DVD, but I expect to not care when they are the same value. Just give me more good movies!

It sure sounds like the comparisons you are expressing are SD TV versus HDTV. The point here was SD DVD versus HD disc. I talked to a customer today who had been watching HD at 480p for months, didn't know it, I set it up right, he could not believe it was set wrong and could not tell a difference...

Like so many others he is still all about the noise floor and has yet to see the difference in actual detail. HD at 480p or 1080i is just as clean as the other... so is DVD and that is the potential problem for the mass market - they just might not get it.

I'll let you know how my mother feels about DVD types - she's moving to a new place in a couple of weeks and I've picked her up an HD DVD - she's been watching on a $29 TruTech lately, so at first it won't be a fair comparison. We'll try and figure out a way to test her reactions without her knowing of the changes on the HD player. Of course that will have good upconversion (Tosh HD-A3) skewing the experiment.

I haven't even tried to compare SD/HD to any but one friend, he clearly sees a difference. I do - but not necessarily that magic 5x. Most of the time I just put on the HD disc, and for all the newbies, their jaws drop. Never saw that with SD since the first DVD players.

Appreciating quality is an interesting concept. I mean, we all (mostly) started eating very plain food (peanut butter sandwiches), and then at somepoint, we noticed there were spices. Maybe a better analogy, we all grow up loving (tolerating) coming of age movies, then we see our first indie. All of a sudden we experience what a real story is. And we don't want to go back. A million examples potentially there. I take all this as a personal responsibility to get my friends to see and hear quality. For example, sit someone in the sweetspot, tell them to close their eyes and play a good SACD. They may not go buy it, but they now know what 5.1 can do. Similarly with a good demo movie.

480p from an HD source vs. 1080...I'll have to try that - I might have to agree that with a good scaler on the display, it might be pretty close.

As for BR vs. HD I can't imagine anyone being able to tell the difference given similar setups and similarly mastered dvds. It's all in where your movies are! (and value).

The only element left that could have a huge impact on this is the adult video industry, pornography, as Sony has stated they will not provide a Blu-ray license to produce that content just like they did during the Beta versus VHS war.

I wish I would have googled that!

In doing other research I came across another author stating the same and googled porn HD DVD. Porn is alive and kicking for both HD DVD and Blu-ray formats. Please no links If interested google it!

My apologies to our readers...