3D HDTV in the Home

Richard,

thanks for sharing your CES experiences and insights. Very useful reality check. Somewhat disappointing, but once you strip away the hype, about what you'd realistically expect.

One thing though,

If you want 3D, a new 120 Hz 3D display will be required, there will be no other way.

Are we forgetting the existing 3D-capable sets from Mitsubishi and Samsung, that came out in 2007-2009?

...another 3D demo using a 2D to 3D converter product connected to another GD-463G10 LCD. The conversion had the appearance of a diorama with flat 2D cutouts along with that half resolution response chock full of scan lines.

Sorry to hear this was so unimpressive. Your experience and reaction was quite a bit different than Al Poor's.

- Tim

Are we forgetting the existing 3D-capable sets from Mitsubishi and Samsung, that came out in 2007-2009?

Not at all but I 'm not sure if it will be compatible and I'm looking into that now.

As for 2D to 3D conversion Alfred and I are not talking about the same product(s) and mine was delivered on the half res x-pol display rather than a full res display. I don't see how that would change the flat 2D cut-outs and diorama look for that product and I have not seen the products he has. One of our readers though did a good job of pointing out in that thread the recipe for conversion and the limitations you would have.

One thing is for sure; expect plenty of 3D propaganda because millions of dollars are riding on it's success. As always, I'll be keeping it real.

Have you seen any of the 3D movies over the last year or Avatar? What did you think about your 3D experience?

Richard"Are we forgetting the existing 3D-capable sets from Mitsubishi and Samsung, that came out in 2007-2009?
Not at all but I 'm not sure if it will be compatible and I'm looking into that now.

They will be compatible as soon as Mitsubishi releases their 3D adapter in 1Q10, announced at CES 2010 and suggested to be under $100.

The adapter will input 1.4 HDMI as 3D full frame from Blu-ray and convert the stream to HDMI <1.4 version output as 3D checkerboard to be compatible with the current Mitsubishi 3D-ready RPTVs (and Samsung RPTVs as well, using the same DLP checkerboard technology, although Samsung did not confirm this statement from Mitsubishi). However, the display resolution obviously takes a big hit when displaying those full frame images using the wobulated chip.

Privately, and unofficially, it was a discussion with Mitsubishi about TI doing something special for them, and when I mention “full 1080p NON-wobulated chips for RPTVs” I got a smile in return and a “you did not heard it from me” comment. TI left the show on Saturday and I could not meet with them, not yet.

Regarding 2D to 3D conversions performed on the fly, they are certainly not the $100K per minute quality of Hollywood movie conversions, and cannot possibly be. My personal opinion after seeing quite a few is that the resulting image is interesting at first impression but could be very fatiguing for extended viewing, not to mention all the errors one can see if actually analyzing the image.

After a few minutes of viewing soccer and other multiple moving object images, I wanted to take my glasses out for a break. JVC was the worst 2D-to-3D conversion even on almost-still-images. The others produced multiple locks and unlocks of the depth effect of the individual objects in the image, even on fixed logos such as the Samsung logo on the demo image, which should not be moving but it did. In general, the ruff conversion looked as multiple layers of 2D images (like cardboard box cuts) overlapping each other not having depth on their own.

This may be attractive to some but it may be a risky offering on the establishing of 3D and revenue plans from it. Those viewers that may need to postpone investing in a true 3D source (such as Blu-ray 3D) can become disenchanted with 3D if all the 3D they view is 2D conversions done by substandard video processing (and much cannot be expected from the cost of the chips into those TVs to sell the sets at an attractive price).

I compare this to the first generation of line-doublers in 1998 when HD came out, and Richard can sympathize with those, even on the top performer Pioneer Elites at that time (the second generation was better).

Regarding light output, resolution drop, color shifts, color rendition, impacted whites and blacks, I do not want to sound negative but it feels like viewing a large projection screen with the projector iris totally closed, the lamp at the end of its life, and a totally altered color temperature compared to 2D. However, I enjoyed the 3D LG projector and the 3D Panasonic plasmas (flicker did not affect me).

I may find 3D attractive to have as an additional feature in the back burner only if the Delta $ with the similar 2D model is minimum, for extra sets at the home, never to justify a replacement, not to mention a front projection/screen replacement, and consider 3D just as additional functionality such as Deep color or Internet connectivity, desirable only if all the other technical features of the set are the best they could be compared to its 2D model version, not instead of.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

Rodolfo,

thanks very much! That was a wealth of information.

I was especially interested in your evaluation of the real-time 2D-3D conversions, since initially "real-3D" will be in short supply. Also...

> They will be compatible as soon as Mitsubishi releases their 3D adapter in 1Q10, announced at CES 2010 and suggested to be under $100.
<

Announced, but no protoype demoed?

> However, the display resolution obviously takes a big hit when displaying those full frame images using the wobulated chip. <

Are all these (Mitsu and Samsung) sets still using wobulation? I know the early gens did, back in '07, but had the impression the later '08-'09 models (like my HL61A750) were using full 1920x1080 DMD arrays, without wobulation. I may be wrong, which is why I ask.

- Tim

Only the early version s of DLP used full res native DMD imagers, 720p. By about 2005 they started using wobulated 720p DMDs, 640x360. When 1080p hit the market the only DMD available on any RP MD was wobulated, 960x540, and that continues to this day with Mitsubishi as the only RP MD manufacturer.

The wobulation runs at 120hz to create a combined 60hz frame rate. 3D requires cutting the resolution in half to each eye or getting the wobulation mirror to run at 240hz. It is unlikely there will be a manufacturers program to modify the wobulation rate or additional video processing and the solution will come from the adapter Rodolfo discussed.

DLP Rear Projection delivers half resolution in 3D mode, period.

Tim,

The adapter was demo but the actual box was not clearly seen on the demo. The same demo was shown on the first press day the evening I arrived (Jan 5).

Mitsubishi had a truck at the end (and inside) the LVCC central. Several RPTVs were displayed on 3D. The last one was the laser model showing 3D content coming from a 3D Blu-ray thru their adaptor. All was dark in the room, no clear view of how the box looked, or the player, but that was formally announced.

Mitsubishi confirmed that the adapter is coming shortly, no price officially disclosed but very reasonable (they said). I got a "under $100" hint in another meeting with Mitsubishi when I mentioned the number to get a reaction.

They did not announce a plan to produce their own 3D Blu-ray player, nor they wanted to be on record for hinting that, but the body language (and my insistence) told me is coming, and their version should contain the adaptor functionality within it, so it can play with existing Mitsu TVs outputting checkerboard format.

I am not sure how they would make the player output regular 2D and 3D Blu-ray format (should be a menu function), but they are obliged by the recently approved standard by the BDA. This may take months but the hint was for 2010.

From my 62 CES meetings (90% about 3D, one lasted 4 hours with the 3D@home consortium) I have a wealth of information, but you may NOT want to hear it. We thought that HD was complicated in the first decade; we have not seen anything yet.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

Based on years of service training attendance and past discussions I would be surprised if Mits decides to provide a Mitsubishi 3D Blu-ray player. Mits has tried to get a foothold in other product categories many times in the past but since they never made their own stuff profit margins were poor and competition with the rest was difficult. Service and parts support is also more difficult when you are not making the product. That has reared its ugly head numerous times trying to get such products repaired only to find the part no longer available. It was as frustrating for them as it was for us and the customers.

If they do make a 3D Blu-ray player, it will be rebadged OEM with their mod to function with their 3D DLP line and like the past, more expensive than the competition. The only reason to buy it is because you have a Mitsubishi or Samsung 3D ready DLP. That's a limited market and I just don't see it...

The 3D adapter is far more likely to be the sole solution to their 3D compatibility concern (and Samsungs).

Tim,

Here is the Mitsubishi press release I got at CES (the relevant part):

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Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America Brings 3D to Life at “Experience 3D Tech Zone” at CES

New 3D Adapter Will Enable Cross-Platform Compatibility for 3D Content

LAS VEGAS — January 5, 2010 —Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. (MDEA) will showcase the flexibility and versatility of its 3D-ready TV products by displaying 3D content delivered by various video sources, including Blu-Ray players at CES 2010 in the “Experience 3D Tech Zone”. MDEA has also announced a new 3D adapter which will provide Mitsubishi 3D-ready Home Theater TV owners with an easy and affordable solution to display 3D from a 3D Blu-Ray player. The Mitsubishi 3DC-1000 3D adapter will be available in late spring of 2010. MDEA will be located in CES booth #14548, Central Hall.

“As a pioneer in the 3D television market, Mitsubishi is bridging the gap for consumers to experience this break-through technology,” said Frank DeMartin, vice president of marketing, Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America. “3D is definitely a large screen experience, and Mitsubishi offers the most models and largest screen sizes of 3D-ready TVs available today, including one of the world’s largest, mass-produced 3D-ready TV’s at 82 inches.”

At CES, MDEA will be rolling in its massive and impressive 53-foot Mobile Marketing Showroom (MMS) into the “Experience 3D Tech Zone”. The MMS will provide a 1000-square-foot showroom showcasing a wide variety of new 3D content displayed on both LaserVue™ and Home Theater TVs.

3D entertainment will be demonstrated on a laser-powered television, using a 65” LaserVue TV and MDEA’s Home Theater TV product line will be displaying cross-platform content on its 60”, 73” and 82” televisions.

MDEA began distribution of 3D-ready TVs in 2007. To help consumers experience and learn more about 3D technology, MDEA has displayed highly interactive retail demonstration kiosks in more than 150 home theater dealers nationwide, enabling consumers to experience 3D as it would perform in a typical home setting. The in-store 3D display is equipped with a Mitsubishi Home Theater TV and media server, as well as stereoscopic glasses and an IR-emitter. Each demo showcases all the products needed to watch 3D movies or play 3D games at home.

“Consumer demand for 3D-capable TVs will continue to rise in 2010 and beyond, and the industry will see Mitsubishi continue to provide solutions for mass consumer adoption,” said David Naranjo, director of product development, Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America. “We expect 2010 to be the year that 3D finally achieves mass consumer adoption, and are working to continue to pioneer innovation to make it easier than ever for consumers to experience this next big step in home entertainment.”

¹ In order to display 3D images, Mitsubishi LaserVue® & Home Theater 3D Ready TVs require source devices to support checkerboard format for display of 3D gaming or 3D Blu-ray content. Some 3D Blu-ray players (BDPs) may output a checkerboard format that is compatible with Mitsubishi 3D Ready TVs. For 3D BDPs that do not output a compatible checkerboard format, Mitsubishi plans to offer the 3DC-1000 3D adapter. The 3DC-1000 will convert the 3D BDP output to a 3D format that can be displayed by any Mitsubishi 3D Ready TV.
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Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

Rodolfo,

thank you very much for taking the time to share all the good information, as well as your professional opinions. Very helpful.

- Tim

I very much appreciate Rodolofo's response although I have another installment coming that discusses wobulated DLP in far more depth and how those concerns parallel broadcast 3D. On the surface it sure appears you are getting half of the 3D meal with these products and broadcast but there is more to it and appearances can be deceiving...

videograbber, sorry that installment has not been delivered yet...

In the first post is a correction to the article.

I have another installment coming that discusses wobulated DLP in far more depth and how those concerns parallel broadcast 3D.

From the Trenches - 2 Million 3D Ready Displays Already in the Home, but…
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/201 ... me_but.php