Look, I'll admit it. I like to find a bargain as much as the next guy. When I walk into "DVDs ‘R US", I always slide by the "previously viewed" bin first. When I travel, Budget Inn is high on my list. But experience has taught me that there are times when spending MORE is the smart thing to do in the name of economy. Recently, in the quest to find material on this site to be contrary about (that's my mission here - had you guessed?), I found a significant number of posts focused on where to find the absolute rock bottom price for this or that piece of A/V gear. It's not unusual to find a subsequent post a week or two later looking for help on how to "fix" that same item.

Here's the thing...

Read the Column

So, Terry. You are hyping alleged quality issues with Toshiba HD-A3's for $150 while ignoring problems with expensive $500+ Samsung Blu-Ray players? All the high def optical players have typical earlier adopter issues

There's nothing wrong with cheaper mass market stuff. Those cheap $50 Chinese-made and branded DVD players have fewer issues with homemade and self-authored DVD's than many of the $300+ mainstream DVD players. Not every one needs the fancy noise reduction and scaling capabilities of Sony and Sharp. They are happy saving $1k or more with a Vizio. Yes, the $5k Lexicon DVD player has a buffer where you don't get a 1 second pause during a layer change with movies. Most people that paid $30 for their DVD players are willing to live with this.

Now, for the expensive components and expensive displays? I had a friend that wanted to buy a Pioneer! plasma and asked the sales guy how good the TV speakers were on the display. Even I took issue with that. Spending money here, but saving money there is still an issue for many people.

Asking people to go whole hog on the display and the components isn't just elitist, it's unrealistic.

Dollars paid does not always equate to quality and performance received.
High end mfgr name does not always guarantee high end quality.
Discussion groups and reviews on the Internet prove this out time and time again.
The best retailer / installer understands this, uses this to their advantage to create a balanced installation
that meets and exceeds the customer expectations within their budget.
The exception are the videophiles where money is not an issue and the name plate on the case is more
important than the performance.

Steve
73 de N2UBP

allargon wrote:So, Terry. You are hyping alleged quality issues with Toshiba HD-A3's for $150 while ignoring problems with expensive $500+ Samsung Blu-Ray players? All the high def optical players have typical earlier adopter issues.... Asking people to go whole hog on the display and the components isn't just elitist, it's unrealistic.

First of all, I never advocated going "whole hog". Going whole hog would be "hyping" a Denon BD player at $2,000 or their top-of-the-line NTSC player at $3,800.

There are no "alledged" problems with these players. ALL current and past generation players on both sides (BD and HD-DVD) have had serious s/w problems. They are LEGEND with any installer you talk to. Even NetFlix is alerting their customers to the need for s/w updates.

I promise you, there is PLENTY wrong with "cheap, mass-marketed" players. Forget the poor build quality and cheesy user interface, I'm talking about (lack of) fundemental video processing.

Finally, suggesting that people only spend money once and save up for some minimum level of enjoyable video performance is anything but elitist, it's experienced-based prudence.

You make a good point. What I find is that people, generally, do not do any research before buying. I do way too much. It will take me 8 months to decide on spending $3,000 on an HDTV. Maybe 3 months on a $500 Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. That's why I ended up at AVSForum. I simply need to know why I'm paying those monies for this-or-that product.

The hard part, however, is figuring out where that line is drawn between value vs quality. In my experience, most of my associates, family, and friends simply go out and buy what's on sale. Or what seemed like a good idea at the time. I wish I could be satisfied with such decisions for myself.

But I have talked to very few who actually say they've gone out and bought junk from Circuit Barn. The bigger danger? Those guys in the van that stop you in the parking lot to tell you they just delivered a bunch of equipment to a local warehouse, and -- guess what? -- they have three sets of really fine speakers and receivers for only $50 because their supplier shipped too many by mistake. I had a friend that nearly fell for that one until I pointed out that the namebrand on the boxes was NOT well-known.

Guy, thanks for your input. You are definitely erring on the right side - that is, doing too much homework. The only thing wrong with that is you are missing out on the benefits of whatever it is you are doing homework on. On the other hand, the item is likely coming down in price while you are doing your research!

It may well be possible to reduce your research time by narrowing the "voices" you listen to. The "chat rooms" can be dangerous places to glean info (yes, I realize this IS one) and I intend to do a column on that topic as soon as I increase my life insurance. Just be sure the "facts" you are gathering are from reliable, trusted sources.

B-T-W, most people who buy "junk", don't realize they have bought junk, because they never have experienced the real deal in comparison. Ignorance is bliss.

The guys in the van are on their way to jail. Let's just hope they don't meet any of your friends along the way.

I really do wish you would do that article on the Forums. I think I learn a lot in most of them. It's frustrating because you really can't tell who knows their stuff. I hope you point out one glaring fact about those Forums: People always recommend what "they" bought as an example of what is "best". It is rare for an individual to admit that their decision may not have been the best choice. I have been posting several Topics, lately, on the dangers of running out of things to replace, the frustration of no one ever being satisfied with their purchases, and what I call the Carcass-Pickers who do nothing but work hard to find every little problem they can with a new HDTV set or AVR. The thing I hate about the Forums is that people are so offensive to each other, at times.

The only ones who do not post there are the ones who are oblivious to these issues and are -- surprise! -- enjoying their equipment! My advice? Make a decision, but don't go back there because you'll only get increasingly disappointed by that decision.

Yes, I do too much research. I'm a Purchasing Agent, so part of it is a reflection of my job, I guess. And then I do look for a good price on the items I decide to buy -- not necessarily the lowest. Although I buy on the Web every day, many websites selling video and audio or camera equipment scare me -- especially those out of New York. Most local dealers turn me completely off.

I've had one enjoyable experience at local Retailers this past year -- when I visited Myer-Emco. I think it comes down to the luck-of-the-draw as to which Rep you meet in the stores. Whether he talks down to you, or acts like a jerk. So I have a small problem with the idea of just paying more because of some perceived benefit in that act. I do agree with researching and deciding on a good-quality unit and then finding it at a reasonable price. I trust Amazon for that a lot of the time.

One way to fix that might be to set standard pricing that is locked in for everyone.
Oops! There goes Free Enterprise!

Let me ask you this...
When every manufacture prints a LIST price -- and then none of the stores sell it at LIST -- how is a person supposed to determine what a FAIR price is? I'm talking good-quality units. Does anyone really pay the stated List Price for anything? And why is the List so far removed from the selling price? This is so prolific in the video / audio industry that it is almost laughable.

allargon wrote:There's nothing wrong with cheaper mass market stuff. Those cheap $50 Chinese-made and branded DVD players have fewer issues with homemade and self-authored DVD's than many of the $300+ mainstream DVD players. Not every one needs the fancy noise reduction and scaling capabilities of Sony and Sharp. They are happy saving $1k or more with a Vizio. Yes, the $5k Lexicon DVD player has a buffer where you don't get a 1 second pause during a layer change with movies. Most people that paid $30 for their DVD players are willing to live with this.

If you believe it , then will leave you to that thought

I agree with you to a point.

I have seen the "great deal" which never quite adds up. A computer with too little harddrive, memory, or a slow CPU. A TV which doesn't have enough inputs is one of my favorite examples. A friend of mine (didn't talk to me first) purchased a 42" widescreen television at closeout for $900, but the TV is not HDTV. Buying a sleek looking flatscreen TV is not a value as we are moving to HDTV in a year so that is $900 spent on old technology that will never give my friend access to HDTV and means he needs to spend more money to move to HDTV.

DVD's in the bargain bin are no bargain for HDTV owners. Most bargain DVD's are the "Normal" format. Anyone with a widescreen HDTV needs a "Widescreen" usually "Special Edition" and more expensive version of the disk. You don't find many widescreen editions sitting in the bargain bin.

As for HD players I can only speak for my experience. I purchased the Toshiba HD-A2 for $99. It is by far the cheapest component in my home theater. It is also excellent. I keep it updated because it is always connected to the internet. I have experienced no playback problems with it. The only problem I have seen with HD DVD was caused by "exclusive" deals made to try to move everyone to BD. These deals have nothing to do with the quality or lack of for the less expensive HD DVD players.

Contrast my HD DVD experience with many expensive BD players. A recent lawsuit was filed against Samsung because many new BD disks don't play on the early players. The early and expensive BD players will never be able to move into the future because they lack the hardware and software to handle new BD features. What a bargain.

On talk radio first time callers say “long time listener, 1st time caller”

Ill say “long time reader, 1st time poster”

Im a lurker but as an avad reader of this place I have a bone to pick with you.

Recently, in the quest to find material on this site to be contrary about (that's my mission here - had you guessed?), I found a significant number of posts focused on where to find the absolute rock bottom price for this or that piece of A/V gear. It's not unusual to find a subsequent post a week or two later looking for help on how to "fix" that same item.

I have a problem with that because I have been following the forums for some time and don’t recall any threads like that here. Do you have a link? Do you have multiple links? Another problem I have is you mention a plasma review here. Do you have the link for that? It would be nice to know what that dvd player was. It must have been the ht guys because Richard hasnt reviewed any plasma tvs. I have an Oppo that cost about $200. Whats wrong with that? Its received great reviews even from Richard.

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/reviews/2007/06/oppo_dv-981hd_upconverting_sd_dvd_player.php

Dont get me wrong because I understand exactly where you are coming from but your example isnt the best and you havent even told us what player you would put on that plasma tv after being questioned about your opinion on cheap players. As for the htguys I read all there stuff with a grain of salt since they dont cover performance like Richard or your company Widescreen Review.

Hey Guy. I agree with you on avs forums and all the others. Have you checked the forums here? Its very different here and this place doesnt support the fan boy clubs. I find the fourms readable and somebody is moderating them because I see them getting split up and put together and silly repetitive quotes removed all the time. Alot of good guys answer them. The only bad thing about this place is the amount of information is alot smaller but what you do get is good stuff.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to check it out. I like these fast articles, too. Terry Paullin writes some great, insightful articles for the magazines I read, and I think it's just fantastic that an author will take the time to respond. I can't tell you how many times articles like these (elsewhere) simply ignore any comments posted later.

I've always had a problem with how to evaluate cost vs value. Case in point is off the subject a bit, but I just ordered two bulk rolls of digital media from a vendor that charged me over $200 per roll more than the two bids I received this morning. When I asked why, the answer was "Because of the value we add to the sale." Say what? What value? They've never trained us on anything. They can't add any insight that a guy with 28 years experience in my business doesn't already have. In fact, they're simply a reseller to us -- which won't be getting repeat business. $50 differences -- I can take. $200 differences are a bit much. That's a 50% premium over what the other two vendors quoted.

How do I tell my boss "Well, it's a better value experience buying from them."??

Back on-subject -- I think Terry should not be taken too literally on this. The point is valid -- I just don't know how a consumer decides where the line between fair and naive gets crossed. Naive being that point where you know you're going to pay dearly, later on. Once that happens a low price is no bargain. But, ya' know what? I've been shafted by higher-priced sources, too!

There are some major problems facing the average TV viewer today when he goes out to buy that new HDTV and sound system. First, and foremost, they're uninformed. They have no idea what they're buying, they get sales people who aren't knowledgeable or sales people who try to sell them unnecessary gear or they shop at a place like Costco where they find a super price on a brand x TV that doesn't have the inputs or quality they want.

They don't read the forums like this one to prepare themselves for their purchase and they go out to buy without any knowledge of what they really need. Wow, it's a 50-inch HDTV that's only three inches think, so it must be the latest and the greatest. They also have no idea how to receive a digital or HD signal.

A friend of mine went shopping for "a large plasma TV" so he could watch the Super Bowl in HD on a big screen. He paid over $4000 for it, got it home, hooked it up and found that the picture he received was terrible. He called me and said his picture was "real blurry". He asked me to come over and see what he was doing wrong, because he didn't have the great picture like he'd seen on my TV.

While he did get a good Panasonic plasma, he got no information from the salesman or anyone else about how to receive HD or digital TV and he was just doing what he'd always done. If you want to watch channel 2, you tune to channel 2. He had hooked up his Comcast cable box and he'd scanned for digital, but ended up watching the analog channels. He had no idea that he had to get an HD box and tune to the higher channels for HD... in the 700 range here in the Bay Area. He also had no idea that he could use an antenna to get beautiful HD pictures over the air.

My friend was able to get the new HD box in time for the Super Bowl, and he also bought an antenna so that he could view the OTA stations not carried by cable. I helped him get it set up and he now has a great picture, both from cable and his new antenna, so he's a happy camper, but I'm sure that there are lots and lots of viewers out there who are just like my friend who have no idea what they're doing, what they're buying or what they need to do to get it to work right.

I wonder how many have purchased new digital TVs and are still watching analog... how many have purchased big widescreen TVs which are not HD capable... how many have no idea that you can get free HD with an antenna? There's a huge uninformed public out there.

Larry
SF

Larry Kenney wrote:
There's a huge uninformed public out there.

Larry
SF

Yes, indeedy! And wait until they DO read these Forums.
Talk about being confused?

They'll be getting told about ISF Calibrations, why glare is not an issue, why glare is the oONLY issue, buying an AVR -- no, wait, a Pre-Pro AND an AVR -- then an outboard Video Processor, new speakers because the HDTV's suck, HDMI cables, installation for $1500 from Best Buy, wall-mounts, throw away the Remote and buy a Universal, get a new chair, Green Push, Black Crush, Orange Julius, flashlighting, judder, and don't even THINK about an HD-DVD player because the guys favoring Blu-Ray will kick your butt...

God forbid they find the Gary Merson articles that tell them their TV really can't deliver all the HD they paid for on every connector!

Sometimes, I think they're better-off being uninformed.

That's a gem, Guy! ROFL!

Larry
SF

alice wrote:

allargon wrote:There's nothing wrong with cheaper mass market stuff. Those cheap $50 Chinese-made and branded DVD players have fewer issues with homemade and self-authored DVD's than many of the $300+ mainstream DVD players. Not every one needs the fancy noise reduction and scaling capabilities of Sony and Sharp. They are happy saving $1k or more with a Vizio. Yes, the $5k Lexicon DVD player has a buffer where you don't get a 1 second pause during a layer change with movies. Most people that paid $30 for their DVD players are willing to live with this.

If you believe it , then will leave you to that thought

It's not a thought. I bought about 5 mainstream (Samsung, LG, Panasonic, Philips) upscaling DVD players last year looking for ones that would play the DVD+R's created by my Magnavox recorder. I finally settled on a Philips upscaling recorder.

My friends' no-name $30 Chinese DVD players that only have composite (not even component) out play those discs just fine.