Blu-ray Wins: A Bittersweet Celebration

[terrypaullin]

Henry, I actually want to agree with you on several points - in fact, pretty much everything you said in your last post. Certainly, prices will (eventually) drop with volume - and, no, it wasn't fair to just include the expensive picks, although those have been what have made up the recent announcements - and, yes, ALL of the potential customers for the $17,000 player are probably snobs. I was just trying to make two points which I'll reiterate here, and try to do a better job.

1. I wasn't saying prices would go up JUST BECAUSE BD won the war. I was pointing out that ALL their players were heavily subsidized and now that's gone. Absent the extreme pressure to get the next generation to the street at can't-say-no prices, we will start to see more deliberate releases of higher quality, fully featured BD players at prices that fairly reflect those qualities plus a reasonable margin for the manufacturer. Nothing wrong with that, after all, we want them to stay viable as suppliers to service this stuff.

2. Since we are more familiar with the NTSC (DVD) world, I'll use that arena to make the second point. There are very defenseable reasons why Denon has 10 DVD player offerings at a variety of price points. Yes, the $3,500 product is the "Flagship" and the production runs are bound to be shorter than the mainstream boxes, but having installed most of those models, I can promise (all of) you there several visable differences in the image going out the back. The CE world is so competitive, we pretty much get what we pay for, within reason. The $700 box HAS TO look better than the $500 box or one of those SKUs would never hit the dealer's shelves.

Henry, I think on most of this stuff, we are in violent agreement.............

[Richard]

Caveat Emptor!

After 26 years my experience says that price reflects only a manufacturers cost, what a manufacturer thinks the market will bear, a way to differentiate feature sets for the low, mid and high end markets and finally the level of service support you will receive. The other issue is feature set. Beyond bells and whistles that provide a function you desire, an objective review is required to determine if claimed performance features or upper tier performance products are actually enhancing performance. If they are then the reviewer needs to put the performance gained in context with the increase in price.

As a product reviewer and ISF calibrator, price and brand is clearly not a direct reflection of performance. What a manufacturer gets right one year they may bomb on the next. The only way to really know what you are getting is to find a reviewer that covers objective performance using video test patterns and audio test signals, test equipment and calibration equipment along with a publisher that will support a truthful response without innuendo. That is a very tough nut to crack when researching internet sites and magazines for a product!

One example that has stuck with me for years; when I bought my first HDTV I had some issues and the store upgraded me to the new and improved model. It wasn

[hharris4earthlink]

Terry, you're right, there has been some heavy subsidizing going on, and it's no surprise Sony is the prime example. You have to offer cheap razors if you want to sell a lot of razor blades.

From my viewpoint, this is all good because it pushes technology forward and employs a lot of scientists and engineers who are now struggling frantically to find better ways to store and use information in the BD format.

Henry

[aaronstout]

Dale,

While many HD DVD supporters/investors will vilify anything you say regarding the end of the format "dispute", I for one would like to say "Thank you" for spending the time I believe you put into that opening post. I think it was very tastefully put and offered appreciation for both formats and put things pretty much in perspective.

Nice job, I wish others would just drop the constant bickering.

AaronS

[akirby]

[quote="pmalter0"]Dale,

What is it with your blind acceptance of industry self-serving statements? Do you actually believe what you quoted is a retort to my comment? Do you want me to explain to you just how meaningless the statement about consumer preference is?

Phil

To wit: Six months ago, Ken Graffeo, HD DVD Promotions Group co-chair and Universal Studios strategic marketing executive VP, had this to say about consumer preferences:

The lower cost of HD DVD duplication has made it easer for independent film producers to offer their titles in the high-definition format, Gaffeo said.

[allchemie]

"After 26 years my experience says that price reflects only a manufacturers cost, what a manufacturer thinks the market will bear, a way to differentiate feature sets for the low, mid and high end markets and finally the level of service support you will receive. The other issue is feature set. Beyond bells and whistles that provide a function you desire, an objective review is required to determine if claimed performance features or upper tier performance products are actually enhancing performance. If they are then the reviewer needs to put the performance gained in context with the increase in price. "

What you say is definitely true in a stable marketplace, but it certainly isn't what occured in the HD/Blu Ray battle. Toshiba and Sony were definitely subsidizing their players (along with studios) to gain a foothold in the marketplace.

Now, as far as standard dvd players, receivers, and other more mature consumer electronics--what you say is absolutely true. If Blu Ray eventually gets significant consumer acceptance and purchases it will be like any other consumer electronics product.

Greg

[Richard]

That was provided to counter balance Terry's statement...

The CE world is so competitive, we pretty much get what we pay for, within reason. The $700 box HAS TO look better than the $500 box or one of those SKUs would never hit the dealer's shelves.

[pmalter0]

... go file your stupid lawsuit.

How interesting, that is the same argument that Bush is using to get Congress to sanction continued violations of our laws and Constitution -- it's only lawyers out to make money who are objecting. That is outrageous. Your inability, or unwillingness, to see how my citing of an HD DVD executive making the opposite argument of the HD DVD executive's argument cited by Dale, refutes his citation, is outrageous. A cabal of industrialists have, flouting our laws, conspired together to deny all of us our right to choose in a free market. And what do I hear from you, Aaron and Dale -- that is the way the cookie crumbles -- it's the 'merican way -- get over it. That's outrageous. Your lack of outrage is outrageous.

36 years ago I, a registered Democrat, was appointed chief consumer advocate of a Midwestern state by its Republican governor, because he felt that I was the best man to enforce the laws. Today that would be unheard-of. Back then the United States was the unchallenged world leader in wealth, health, equity and ordered liberty under our mutual respect of the laws. Today our health policy is determined by the pharmaceutical companies, our energy policy by the oil companies. Today we are the laughing stock, or worse, of the developed world. Our standard of living is falling, we can no longer afford health care, we now torture, our Constitution and laws, which protected us for generations, go flouted and unenforced. And the biggest reason why is because those who should be outraged are unable, or unwilling, to understand what is happening to us. And those of us who say stop -- look -- listen -- understand -- get angry -- are personally attacked, and told -- that's the way the cookie crumbles -- it's the 'merican way -- get over it -- you lawyers are just trying to foment litigation. It's outrageous.

Phil

ps: I am known in some legal circles as: "Phil, tell us how you really feel, Malter."

[film11]

Well said,Phil. The lack of outrage, even on some of the smaller legislative decisions which infringe on personal rights, has long been something that sticks in my craw. (Smoking bans in bars,for example. Even though I'm a non-smoker, the false claims of "public health" reasons to add a law that only takes away income and infringes on personal freedom should have had people up in arms!) I guess recognizing and seeing how the industry handled competition (from retailers on up) is one of the reasons (but not the only one) that I won't be getting a BR player anytime soon.

[Richard]

Your inability, or unwillingness, to see how my citing of an HD DVD executive making the opposite argument of the HD DVD executive's argument cited by Dale, refutes his citation, is outrageous.

Two contradicting statements from the same camp; it's all marketing Phil or they are just very confused...

What I don't understand is you have stated that both camps were doing under handed things to win, in essence trying to buy victory. How can you be surprised that a studio was paid off (claimed by the conspirators)? Isn't that just part and parcel of the under handed process of buying victory? It's as if doing so crossed some line of yours that subsidizing product didn't besides other claims. Aren't both forms illegal in your book? You keep wanting to make a stand for justice due to one event when justice was never served prior to that event according to you.

I am not saying it is right but it is what it is and while you go championing the underdog and lament higher prices due to the win I sure hope you agree that Toshiba would have no problem at all in running the victory lap instead along with higher prices. In the end your brand of justice will not get served.

Ultimately I guess I am saying you should apply your outrage and abilities to those more deserving...

All that leaves you with is a hypothetical that both formats could have survived side by side in volume and the benefits you espouse. It's not as if you can prove it anymore than those who think a single format now has a clear road to volume and lower prices (longterm). The difference is far more people believe in the single format solution putting your camp in the minority. It's going to take a few years to see who was right.