1080p into HDTV Displays

[Rodolfo]

What are 1080p manufacturers doing on their current 1080p sets? Are they really implementing all what 1080p can and should do? Do people need all what 1080p can do? When? How could one find out if a set is actually suited to be ready for near future 1080p media, such as Hi Def DVD coming in a few months?

I will cover all those subjects gradually in short articles in the HDTV Magazine, but first let us mention a couple of key points.

[url=http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/04/1080p_into_hdtv.php]Read the Full Article[/url]

[hbdanvers]

Thank you for your superb article. I have been looking and looking for really discriminatory, highly discerning analysis of the LCoS 1080p situation as it stands at this moment (not last year). Your article is certainly the finest I have seen, and from it I have learned more about Syntax/Brillian than from any other source.

Can you guide me to similar analysis of the processes used by JVC in their HD56FH96 model? So far I have not been able to get past the acronyms and the manufacturer hype barrier, and I have found no technical article new enough to deal with this model, not even in Extreme Tech, where I am a regular visitor. Perhaps you have already written such an analysis. I am presently scouring HDTV Magazine's website for more of your work.

Again, thank you so much for such a fine work.

Hollis Danvers

[Rodolfo]

Hollis,

Thanks for your kind comments about my article and work. From a writer point of view receiveing a positive line here and there, like yours, is what keeps me going in doing more efforts helping the public with deep technical analysis, not just news.

Regarding JVC, other than several metings I had with JVC about their 1080p TVs and some review I did for their new sets at CES both years (on the report) I have not writen yet anything as detailed as this article.

Not many manufacturers support a writer on doing deep analysys of what their equipment does internally and how it was designed (like Brillian). Consumers have the right to know the whole story, so at times I have to use a lot of caution when I manufacturer indicates he/she rather not have me putting certain statements of product limitation on my analysis, I still do, like I did with Brillian on their VGA limitaion for 1080p, but I do it in a balanced way showing the positives as well, an approack that most publications and articles on the web do not follow because is not as stricking a title that does not show food for the lions.

One important item, you should consider that JVC already disclosed to me that this year they have no intention to release new models capable of accepting 1080p, which in my opinion is a big mistake when Blu-ray is about to get released next month.

I had recorded the complete meeting/interview with JVC were we clashed several times regarding this issue, but I decided not to use the material as is for publication because JVC has been a good company with good HD equipment all these years and might need to regroup their ideas about wrong decisitions like this one before someone like me burns them with a weak article, so when they asked me what did I wanted on their TVs I provided the long list, 1080p acceptance was high up.

I did the same with Toshiba, we had a similar meeting and received my full list as well, 1080p acceptance was also high-up, which I extended with my criticism about their coice of non-1080p outputs on their new HD DVD players.

JVC blaimed the lack of 1080p acceptance to the HDMI 1.3 not being ready, which anyone that works with Silicon Image (as I do) knows that it is incorrect, even 1.1 can transport 1080p "if you choose the right chip".

So is obviously their internal design, but they are not alone, almost all the manufacturers that excused themselves for not having 1080p acceptance blaimed HDMI (Silicon Image 1.3 specs).

The article is to be followed by others in the series that I had not yet have the chance to draft; I have all the details in my mind and my research material, but I better start moving with the next on the series because is too much information and analysis and it would be a waste if not published.

Thanks for you kindness and I am glad you enjoyed the article.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra

[hbdanvers]

Thank you for your generous and immediate reply. I am already beginning to feel better-informed. The question now arises: whether to wait for the introduction of a 1080p model. I have taken it for granted for some time now that LCoS is worth having, now I have to make the decision on 1080p compatibility. Thank you again. There is much information to gather, and much to think about.

Hollis

[ColdFyre]

I just stumbled upon these forums and after reading your articles Rodolfo, its refreshing to see someone who really does an impartial indepth review of the newest technologies.

Im currently in the market for a new HDTV. I currently have a 4-5 year old Mitsubishi 48" rear projection HDTV monitor. its a monster! I have a small living room and with its size and older technology, non HD signals from my DirecTV receiver look like utter garbage! This im guessing is mostly due to the fact that the tv does a horrible job of upconverting the 480i NTSC signal from the DirecTV box.

I am VERY interested in upgrading to a new 1080p set. Mostly because of the higher resolutions ability to allow me to use a larger screen in close quarters, that before now would be impossible, and because of the wider viewing angle afforded by these newer TVs. I was looking at a TV maybe in the mid 50" range, a 56" for example.

Ive been doing research between the different 1080p technolgies, DLP, LCD, LCoS etc etc and , unless you have some good points to dissuade me from it, Im looking into getting a DLP set. Ive been looking alot at the Samsung 56" DLP sets.

What I really want to know is if you have a list of what manufacturers and model #'s have the ability to accept 1080p. From what im reading, alot of the 1st gens could only accept 1080i signals. If I am going to make the investment in a new 1080p set I would definitely want it to natively accept a 1080p signal.

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated!

David Hageman
Miami, FL

[Rodolfo]

David,

Thanks for your comments.

The list of 1080p sets that accept 1080p is actually not a summary list, but you will find that information on the 2006 report from this Magazine. I was very careful in underligning such feature on each set that has it.

I must tell you though that the second generation sets announced by several manufacturers are now highlighting such capability; since the report was issued in March it does not contain the offiicial announcements after that date, such as Sony.

You are wise in holding for a bit longer your upgrade until the new models show that feature.

In theory 1080p should allow you to sit closer, but many 1080p upscaling/deinterlacing jobs for 480i signals are not that good and do not permit that, so I would suggest to test view your final candidates well before you assume that 1080p upconversions would automatically shorten the sitting distance.

1080p content played on a 1080p set that accepts 1080p is another story, that should certainly show a considerable improvement in comparison with what you have now. That would mean Blu-ray 1st gen (or HD DVD 2nd gen, if they deliver their promise) over HDMI.

Good luck with your upgrade.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo

[hbdanvers]

Hello, again.

I have been reading (believe it or not) the 400+ page specifications of hdmi version 1.1, the latest version to be supported by products at the moment, as far as I have heard.

The 1.1 specs list video formats that must be supported by use of the type A connector, the one with 18 or 19 pins. 1920 x 1080p is conspicuously NOT among them.

The specs go on to list a second, or supplemental, set of support requirements, including 1920 x 1080p. These addional supported formats would presumably be handled by the type B connector, the one with ten more pins.

Here is a link to a nice illustration from Pioneer of the two connector types.

The type B connector shown is the large version, with side mounting screws for secure fastening. I think I have seen that a small version of B now exists, resembling the type A, but with the ten additional pins.

In any case, the presence of the 28-pin connector might be a physical clue to a new TV's capability to receive and process 1080p in its native state. Rodolpho, what is your opinion of this speculation? What I am looking for is an objective way to determine this capability without having to take some factoryrep's word for it.

One salesman at Circuit City stated definitively that 1080p would not be supported by hdmi until version 1.3, which of course is not on any product yet. But, according to the 1.1 specs, this is false. It is not the version of hdmi that is relevant. It is the connector type. The hdmi.org site specifically states that ALL versions of hdmi are 1080p capable. Manufacturers that try to blame their 1080p deficiency on hdmi are throwing a red herring. They just have not wanted to invest in the chip to support the 28-pin connector and 1080p handling, presumably because there are so few sources of 1080p at the moment.

Now, tell me, is JVC lying, or do the FH97 and FN97models to be released in July take 1080p in?

[aross]

Your exceptional article is a tour de force and careful study should qualify one for a degree!

My question concerns what visual improvements I should expect when viewing a Blu Ray 1080p output playing thru Sony's recently released 60" SXRD which accepts 1080p HDMI input versus the Blu Ray playing thru the current Sony 60" SXRD (which cannot accept 1080p thru the HDMI but accepts the 1080i via the component inputs)?

Is the difference easily noticeable at viewing distance of 7'?

Art Ross

[Rodolfo]

Art,

At 7 feet you should be able to detect improvements of quality on a 60" set, however, until the pair is tested, I can only provide you with a "should be" answer.

The player at 1080i out is doing 2:3 pulldown of a 24fps progressive film based movie, to convert to interlaced 60i, so your TV can sync to it. First problem, anytime one converts something to adapt to the next step of the video chain is introducing artifacts.

On the next step, the TV internally deinterlaces de 60i to display it as 60p. Many 1080p TVs are not doing a good job on that task and just bob the 540-line fields to make a 1080o frame, the Sony I believe is not one of those (but if it is that is the second problem), and if not it also depends on how good that processing is done by the TV, vs the player..

If there is a chance to maintain the signal in the progressive domain from player to display it should show an improvement, how much?, it depends on which distance, which screen size, light conditions, calibrated set (or not),variables that affect the perceived improvement.

I guess you might remember the difference in quality when DVD players started to output as 480p rather than only 480i, all that proceesing done internally in the digital domain, and the DTV just locked into the 480p cadence and display it as progressive. You might recall the disappointment when one let the TV do the 480p job from a 480i player, many TVs had weak video porcessors/deinterlacers, and still do today.

One can not say 1080p is similar because the case above involved also D/A in the player output and another A/D conversion in the TV input using the analog component connection. Current connections are now HDMI digital not component analog, so that is one main factor of improvement compared to the past 4080i/p example above.

However, if yout TV setup is using 1080i input over analog to convert to 1080p (as you said) you might be looking at a similar point of weakness, the digital/analog/digital conversions.

The direct 1080p HDMI connection should be able to stand out just by not having to go thru the conversions, but we still have one point of weakness, film based material from the Blu-ray disc read as 24fps internally converted to 60i with 2:3 pulldown before is jumped to 60p within the player.

It would be ideal that 24fps be upframed to 72fps or 120 fps (as 3 or 5 times the frame rate) without passing thru the 60 format, the Sony Blu-ray is not expected to have other thatn 60i/p outputs. If the 1080p Sony TV is only accepting 60i/p inputs, they match but the conversion to 60 is probably doing unnecerssary pull-down and other processing.

How much this would show, versus a 1080i connection, it should show a difference, but your eyes should tell based on the conditions.

Best Regards,

Rodolfo

[Rodolfo]

hddanvers,

What happened with my response to your question above?

I noticed that my response to your question never got posted, or disappeared?

Best Regards,

Rodolfo La Maestra