HDTV and HD audio

[rgoltra]

Will someone who knows please summarize the audio capablilites available now, and likely in the near future, accompanying HDTV? Broadcast? HD DVD? BluRay? 24bit, 192Khz?

I enjoy SACD, DVD-A multichannel, and high quality stereo audio recordings played on my 5.1 channel component audio system (Pioneer, Arcam FMJ8, Hales). I read that equivalent or better television audio "is coming". What is it and is it here? Given that source material includes it, what must be the capabilities of HD cable, and HD A/V players to decode and reproduce it? For me the HDTV set itself need not.

Thanks, all. Your comments are helpful

[allargon]

That's a huge question.

I'll first address the broadcast (including over the air, satellite and cable) sound. HDTV via broadcast should be Dolby Digital 5.1. Most modern HDTV's have optical out. If you receive your programming via an antenna, the TV will handle the video and send the surround sound out via the optical to your receiver. Various cable and satellite boxes also send surround sound out via optical or via HDMI outputs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdtv


Now, I will *try* to address the high definition optical (Blu-Ray, HD-DVD) formats. BR and HD are both capable of higher quality audio than standard DVD. Both formats support Dolby Digital Plus (a high quality lossy form of compression), DTS HD and DTS Master Audio (high quality lossless), Dolby TrueHD (high quality lossless) in addition to lossless PCM. The support of players all these formats is where people start yelling and shouting.

Currently, all HD-DVD players are required to be able to decode Dolby TrueHD and send the output out via PCM. No HD-DVD player on the market full decodes DTS HD or DTS MA. They only extract the 1.5 Mbps DTS core.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hd-dvd

Blu-Ray players have the option of internally decoding TrueHD. Most do. However, be aware that there are a few that do do not. Like HD-DVD, no Blu-Ray player currently can internally decode DTS MA. However, Sony is expected to provide an update to the Playstation 3 to allow it to do so. One thing to note is that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

Confused, yet?

Currently, the only way to listen to DTS MA (which is included in a lot of HD-DVD's from Europe as well as many Fox Blu-Ray titles) is to have an HDMI 1.3a capable high definition player send bitstream audio out to a receiver capable of performing this decoding. AFAIK, only Yamaha, Onkyo and Denon have these receivers. None of the higher end (Rotel, Classe, CambridgeAudio) manufacturers have receivers capable of decoding high definition audio.

You mentioned SACD and DVD-A. Dolby TrueHD is based on MLP like DVD-Audio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truehd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Th ... S_variants

[rgoltra]

Thanks, Allargon. I wonder why Blu Ray didn't simply adapt SACD Direct Stream Digital, which I understand involves the least digital manipulation between performance and listener, Blu Ray and SACD being Sony products.

I understand that DVD Audio involves processing to PCM, so that although it is for 24bit/192Khz, some think it inferior to SACD DSD which is only 20bit/96Khz.

Forgive me if not all that is technically correct. I'm a little over my head, here.

My choices are apparently upgrade my Arcam FMJ8 to FMJ9, (pricey) which handles HDMI switching but not processing, or going to say Onkyo. But I don't want a receiver, just a pre-processor.

I'm 80y old, so I hope I live long enough to get this together, including more source material. Television symphony/opera performances with both HDTV and HD audio would be wonderful. Audio and video are equally important to me. SACD and DVD-A seem to have not gathered much momentum. London Symphony Orchestra and Telarc have issued a few titles in SACD, but are not covering most of the classics, which they do in stereo only.

[Richard]

I wonder why Blu Ray didn't simply adapt SACD Direct Stream Digital, which I understand involves the least digital manipulation between performance and listener, Blu Ray and SACD being Sony products.

I understand that DVD Audio involves processing to PCM, so that although it is for 24bit/192Khz, some think it inferior to SACD DSD which is only 20bit/96Khz.

The DSD stream is more analog in nature than PCM. On the other hand it has a higher noise floor. All SACDs are equal to 24/192 PCM whether stereo or multi-channel. PCM is just as valid but due to the limitations on disc capacity it can support 24/192 only in stereo. Multi-channel is 24/96 max.

DSD is actually older than most think and indeed some DSD mastering from those days is far less than 24/192 in capability.

I have both, DSD decoded by DSD is smoother, PCM decoded by PCM has a better transient response, we are in the realm of splitting hairs. Both formats died a few years ago so all that is coming out now is a trickle at best.

[rgoltra]

Thanks, Richard

That SACD and DVD-A are passe is reflected in the very limited catalog of recordings in those formats. Disappointing because I greatly enjoy SACD multichannel CDs, especially with large orchestra music, which tends to sound squeezed out of stereo only. The 5-7 channel reproduction seems to have the combined effect of a much larger stage, from which you can pick out the solo instruments when they stand to play. "LSO Live" CDs of the Beethoven Symphonies are my best examples of the effect. The Beethoven orchestra music often sounds remote and indistinct, squeezed out of two speakers. And DVD movie soundtracks are much more dramatic with surround.

Are DTS-HD, DTS Master Audio, and/or Dolby True HD audibly better?

Are 24/192 Stereo CDs/HD DVDs being produced? Sony uses 20 bit.

What do you think is the foreground of high definition audio formats development? Same question for HD video DVDs. 1440 line displays?

[Richard]

Are DTS-HD, DTS Master Audio, and/or Dolby True HD audibly better?

Is there a difference between MP3 and CD? Is there a difference between CD and SACD/DVD Audio?

Are 24/192 Stereo CDs/HD DVDs being produced?

CD can't do 24/192. HD DVD at this time is a multi-channel format for movies. DTS Master Audio and Dolby True HD can support 24/192 but content is going to be limited. Phantom of the Opera might be one...

What do you think is the foreground of high definition audio formats development?

I never thought I would see the day that HD audio codecs would be used for motion picture sound tracks and MP3 codecs for music. Audiophile quality and response is dead and no surprise, so few just listen anymore and TV is the new background noise.

Same question for HD video DVDs. 1440 line displays?

You have the Blu-ray/HD DVD format war to find out if the public even cares. As for 1440 line displays... is there something wrong with 1080p displays and 1080p content? 1080p bit mapped to a 1080p display will look sharper than 1080p scaled to 1440p display. Those extra 360 pixels are always going to need a scaler and that will soften the response.

[rgoltra]

Thanks again, Richard. If I get you right, the advanced audio formats for HDTV will be as good or better than SACD/DVD-A. It will be O.K. with me that all the good audio will accompany video. And an excellent A/V pre-amp/processor, such as Integra, which does do DTS-HD etc, should cover the territory.

Thanks for your careful and thorough responses.

[allargon]

I'll jump back in and mention that several 7.1! classical recordings are available at least on HD-DVD. (Many Blu-Ray discs have great sound, too.)


Mozart's Die Zauberfl

[Richard]

Did you note the sidebar? Says Dolby True HD Stereo and Dolby True HD 5.1... where are the extra channels for 7.1?

If I get you right, the advanced audio formats for HDTV will be as good or better than SACD/DVD-A.

These are not for HDTV, they are for HD disc only. Broadcast can't support the higher bitstreams.

[rgoltra]

Excellent, Allargon. When I used Opus' search facility, putting in "HD DVD", four titles came up. 3 ballets and the opera Magic Flute.

That's something to look forward to, soon as I get the equipment. I mentioned HD capable Integra; pre-processor, and I think player. I would check Pioneer, as well. My present Pioneer with DVD-A and SACD has been excellent. My Sony 1080i LCD will do for the time being. I'll replace that last. My Arcam 7 ch amp and Hales speakers w/ Hsu subwoofer will remain.

Other suggestions for equipment (low end of the high end!) and HD DVD/Blu Ray discs would be welcome.

Thanks. This exchange is restarting my program.