xbox 360 - jaggies and interpolation errors

Jonezy · Post by **Jonezy** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:22 am

Hello!

I have recently purchased a Philips 37PF5521D 37 Inch HD Ready LCD TV to play my Xbox 360 on. I have connected everything up correctly, switching switches and changing preferences etc, but when i play my games (either on 720p or 1080i) i still see ladder lines and rough edges! Is this normal for a HD television?? Everything seems compatible.

Thank you in advance.

Adam.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:42 am

i still see ladder lines and rough edges

I think you are referring to aliasing - most call it jaggies for the rough edges. The ladder lines sounds like interpolation errors.

High definition LCD WXGA display, resolution 1366 x 768p

It is native to nothing unless it has an aspect mode for 1280X720 in which case you would have a small border of black around the image. What you are looking for in any performance application is the ability for 1X1 pixel mapping.

Either way I smell that the aliasing and interpolation errors are the nature of the beast based on what I have seen out in the field but I have not taken one through my lab for a definitive conclusion.

The 360 also has an issue with black level so make sure you turn up your brightness to see the dark parts of your game so you don't make a mistake due to not being able to see your game. On the flip side, if using DVD you will need to turn it down or the image will look washed out. I am told that newer 360s supposedly have both of those fixed so if yours is older you might want to look into a firmware update for the system.

Jonezy · Post by **Jonezy** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:22 am

Thanks for your help!

Just a couple of questions:

1) How would I find out if this Lcd television has 1:1 Pixel Mapping?
(I have researched all the specifications etc, and haven't found anything yet.)

2) Does the fact that it is a WXGA display have something to do with it?

Thanks again.

Adam.

Jonezy · Post by **Jonezy** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:31 am

One more question!

I have just found out that when playing a game, if i view an image while it is completely still (eg- A car in a racing game while on pause mode), then the image is perfect and the 'jaggies' have disappeared. But as soon as i continue playing (and moving) the game, they appear again!? Is this something that is common/meant to happen in HD televisions or not? (My Xbox 360 is only a couple of months old).

Thanks.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:16 pm

1) How would I find out if this Lcd television has 1:1 Pixel Mapping?

It is native to nothing unless it has an aspect mode for 1280X720 in which case you would have a small border of black around the image.

To add to that, if you can't get that to happen then it won't do it. That would be of no surprise at all...

But as soon as i continue playing (and moving) the game, they appear again!?

I don't know for sure since I don't own either but based on everything so far it does sound like errors related to the internal scaler of the display which must remap the input to the native resolution of the display and motion will flesh out the errors that a still simply won't. That has been the rub for me because everything I have seen a 360 on was not native to anything except for a CRT 1080I display and it had jaggies too but that is not my lab where I know exactly what is happening and why.

Maybe this will help... I have an opportunity to pick up a Sony Plasma junker which could be fixed. I am not inspired though because it is 1024X768. That pixel depth is 1.33 but this is a 1.78 or 16:9 display. How can that be? The pixels are not square but rectangular. Not only is it not native to anything it also cannot be pixel mapped because that is based on square pixels and the rectangular pixels will stretch the image left to right even if I could; which I can in a PC application. Ultimately this display is for casual viewing applications but I am into performance. In this example yours is better since it does have square pixels.

mjm76 · Post by **mjm76** » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:26 pm

I have an xbox 360 and I use to play it on my 53 inch RPTV and on some games I would see what you are describing.

IMO I think it is more the quality of the games you are playing than the TV. I have found that most EA games since they are made for all the different platforms(Playstation,gamecube, both xboxes, etc) that the PQ on them are not the best. This is just my observation.

What XBOX 360 games are you playing? We may be able to compare notes if we have some of the same games.

BTW: I recently purchased a Panasonic 58 inch Plasma and the PQ of the games has greatly improved compared to my 6 year old Hitachi RPTV............IMO.

Jonezy · Post by **Jonezy** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:29 am

Thanks again,

I've been playing Project Gotham Racing 3 and Test Drive: Unlimited. I play others (splinter cell, GRAW, Table tennis), but these 2 are the only ones that i distinctly notice.

The first racer (PGR 3) gives me jaggies only when there is actual motion on screen, i.e- racing! The other racer (TDU) gives me some jaggies when im in the showrooms, racing and when I zoom in especially. The latter of the two only gives me slight edges but still, if i've spent my savings on a HDtv then i want the quality!

Something else I have noticed. When i go into photo mode on either of the two games, the quality is perfect, not on jaggie to be seen! I don't understand this at all!??
Also, If i move the furthest away from the TV i can get, then i can't see the lines (jaggies) anymore!? I am currently sitting about 4-5 feet away from the screen.

I just need someone to clarify that my Brand new, shiny TV

which took me an AGE to get is not broken, i just hope its not broken!!!

So my question is, Even on the best HDtvs, If you went close up, would you still see some jaggies or is this just simply not meant to happen on a HDtv?

mjm76 · Post by **mjm76** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:58 am

OK I just now played one race on PGR3. I have not played this game that much since I am more into the other sports games and sometimes FPS.

I raced on the London track, a 3 lap race and I did notice while I was racing some jaggies on the metal side rails that line each side of the track but I saw very few on the buildings that lie beyond the course in the background.

These jaggies I saw were noticeable since I was looking for them since you were concerned about them but all in all on my Plasma the PQ was pretty good.

I think that these jaggies are more the result of the game than your TV but I know from experience that my old Hitachi 53 inch RPTV showed these jaggies more than my new Plasma does.

I know Richard has always recommended LCD TV for gaming and that is what you have so I would assume that you have made a good decision on your TV brand but I always wanted a Plasma so my research that I have done on the internet has always centered more on Plasma performance than LCDs.

It might be helpful to you to visit the AVSforum.com. They have threads there that address gaming and LCDs. You might get some info if you post your problems there since there are not that many gamers that post here.

Good luck to you.

Jonezy · Post by **Jonezy** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:16 am

With PGR 3 I have noticed that the jagged edges mainly appear on the cars for me. For example- the Ferrari F430, around the alloys and back window while racing ( they appear especially when black and white colours are next to each other!). I mean these things may seem trivial, but its the fact that when I spend alot of money on something like a TV which I am hoping to keep for a long while, I don't want anything to be wrong with it! (Plus I'd have to haul it back to the store which would be tricky!) If you could try the F430 on PGR3 and give me some feedback that would be great!

Thanks again- You're the most helpful people and website I've used upto now!

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:37 pm

Jonezy,

I doubt your TV is broken yet I also would expect it to have performance issues simply because Philips is not known for image performance. They are rarely discussed in ISF circles. We already touched on the 1X1 pixel mapping. All in all you have a great casual viewing display.

As you have noted viewing distance plays a big role in what you can perceive but you are at about 3 screen heights which is correct if you want to flesh out the full resolution and fill your field of vision. Feel free to back up though if that makes you happy.

As MJM76 points out, the scaling from the game and system is clearly not perfect which is also of no great surprise. I am running a $1500 gaming PC and I get some jaggies too so the xbox 360 represents a great bargain from that standpoint!