acellier wrote:alfred, I certainly do hope that you are not implying that those of us who use alternate (purchased) products to record television are stealing from TiVo!
Certainly not. If you had some way to "unlock" a TiVo so that you could use it without paying the subscription fee, I think that would be wrong. But I've got no problem at all with using a competing solution that does not cost you anything; that's what I do with TitanTV all the time.
There are only 3 ways for Tivo to get paid - one time with the hardware, via user subscription or by advertisements.
The only way for Tivo to provide free service is with advertising or sponsorship, and without a web page interface or hyperlinks to support sponsors or advertising they would have to insert ads into the guide data or end up with pop up ads while you're watching TV with Tivo.
What you get for "free" over the air is paid for by advertising, including the PSIP guide data. But you only get PSIP guide data for broadcast channels. Tivo gives you a complete guide for all channels, not just broadcast.
Personally I'd much rather pay a few bucks per month than put up with advertising. I also don't mind paying for good DVR software like Tivo because it enhances the viewing experience significantly.
Other folks want free tv and don't mind the advertising to pay for it. If that's what you want then you don't need Tivo or satellite or cable DVRs.
alfredpoor wrote:But I've got no problem at all with using a competing solution that does not cost you anything; that's what I do with TitanTV all the time.
And that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean that Tivo should be free or that they're wrong for charging a subscription fee for the service they provide. If you don't want it don't pay for it. I've seen a lot of people imply that Tivo should not charge a subscription fee and that's ridiculous. As you say there are options for those that want it free.
akirby, I don't disagree with most of what you say. I certainly have no problem with paying a reasonable fee for a product or service that I think delivers value in return. And I understand that many people view their bills from TiVo or cable or satellite in that way, and I have no problem with that. It's not what I choose to do, but I agree that other choices can be just as reasonable. (And I just saw your follow-on message; I definitely don't believe that TiVo is wrong to charge a fee or that I should be able to get it for free. It may not be the most effective business decision that they can make, but if that's their model, then so be it and best of luck to them.)
I will disagree with the assertion that "there are only 3 ways for Tivo to get paid - one time with the hardware, via user subscription or by advertisements." If there's one thing we've learned from the new Internet economy is that there are many new ways to model a revenue structure. Not all of Google's services are directly funded by ads. When I look at Google Calendar, there's not a single ad in sight. Pandora has some ads, but I suspect that they get the bulk of their revenues from commissions on the sale of CDs and MP3s that they play on their streaming Internet stations.
Here's a fourth way that TiVo could get paid: information. I bet that they know more than Nielsen about the viewing habits of American television homes. That information could be bundled and analyzed and sold for a lot of money. (I don't know whether TiVo does anything like this already, but I'd be amazed if they don't.) And who would know more about how to replace the lost effectiveness of TV program commercials than TiVo, since they provide some of the primary tools to skip over them?
So there are other revenue streams available, and I expect that there are other models that could work for TiVo.
akirby wrote:There are only 3 ways for Tivo to get paid - one time with the hardware, via user subscription or by advertisements.
Personally I'd much rather pay a few bucks per month than put up with advertising. I also don't mind paying for good DVR software like Tivo because it enhances the viewing experience significantly.
Other folks want free tv and don't mind the advertising to pay for it. If that's what you want then you don't need Tivo or satellite or cable DVRs.
Amen to that. I pay a lot for satellite service and for the ability to have the DVR on local channels along with the menu/guide. Strange though, the top end DISH DVR doesn't seem to have much sensitivity for OTA so we ended up getting them in SD off satellite.
I also agree with the patent and copyright issues. A comparable issue would be Microsoft and DOS. DOS is a generic "Disk Operating System" which every computer has in one form or another and did well before MS was given the patent, or was it copyright for the acronym which had been in general use for some time. Many referred to Personal Computers, or PC's before the name was given to IBM. I had a "PC" well before IBM even built them. It was an Ohio Scientific C28P with 48K of dynamic RAM and a 1 MHz 6502 CPU. It's still stored in the basement, right beside my Amiga 2000.
Now I'd dearly love to have something that would directly record HD on DVD, but where do you find a board, or video card that takes HDMI "input"? Now they are trying to shut off even the SD outputs from satellite and cable. However I do take issue with not being able to record "in HD" what I pay for. To me they industry did an end run around fair use so we no longer even have that except in a much more limited form than a decade ago.
Selling viewing information has been a touchy subject with a lot of people. Doesn't bother me but there would be a public outcry if Tivo started doing that such that an individual's viewing habits were being used by a third party.
Alfred - advertising doesn't have to be ads. Paying for higher priorities on search strings, etc. are all just different forms of advertising. Either the user pays or some type of sponsor pays in return for some benefit. You can't do it for free.
I completely agree that someone has to pay; I've been banging that drum for years. I'm only saying that it used to be that the consumer paid: either with subscription fees, or time watching commercials, or a combination. The new economics of the Internet, however, are making it possible to look to other parties for the revenue.
You are a "newbie" - so, the multitude of prior posts & replies re: "Recording DTV" have escaped your viewing!
VCRs did allow endless analog recording, without restriction.
NO artists were properly reimbursed ..
Back in '98, Congress (then) devised a new Law regarding all manner of "Protections" for these Artist / Managers / etc., called the " Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 " - - - google or whatever that, as well as "Do Not Copy" - Digital Rights Management {DRM} and so on.
"IF" you had your total income dependent upon the Music, Motion Pictures, etc., which was created by or in which you specifically participated, - - - wouldn't it be completely unfair for the rest-of-the-globe to have it w/o paying you a cent as proper Royalities?
Those various monthly "fees" - - whether by TIVO, the local cable DVR rental or whatever - - simply DO allow for a mechanism to do so!
alfredpoor wrote:I completely agree that someone has to pay; I've been banging that drum for years. I'm only saying that it used to be that the consumer paid: either with subscription fees, or time watching commercials, or a combination. The new economics of the Internet, however, are making it possible to look to other parties for the revenue.
Alfred
I don't disagree, but I think there is a difference between doing something with a computer browser or other software and doing something with a DVR.
My issue is that most of the time I do not want whatever comes along with "free" - commercials during movies, e.g. I refuse to watch movies on TNTHD and FXHD just because of the commercial interruptions.
If it could be done without impacting the user then fine - otherwise I'll pay.
I agree. When it comes to adds, and particularly adds on top of what ever I'm watching which is quite common now days, I'd much rather pay a reasonable fee. I already pay a substantial fee for my satellite service. However when I pay to watch something, I expect to be able to record it which is often not the case. What I view as worse is the only way my DVR records is in a proprietary format which does not allow me to play said program or movie on any other machine which means I've lost at least part of the "fair use" of that material.
