Speaker Wire Myths Busted: Today we tackle some of the myths we have heard related to speaker wiring.
[url=http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/podcast/2009/03/hdtv_and_home_theater_podcast_366_speaker_wire_myths_busted_.php]Read Show Notes[/url]
HDTV and Home Theater Podcast #366 - Speaker Wire Myths Busted
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arad
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HDTV and Home Theater Podcast #366 - Speaker Wire Myths Busted
Audiophiles can't tell the difference between Monster Cable and coat hangers
by Nilay Patel, posted Mar 3rd 2008 at 8:03PM
We've always believed that the perceived quality boost that comes from using high-end cables is really just a trick of the mind (read: justifying the ridiculous cost of premium cables to yourself) -- if you've dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want. Still, our belief is one thing -- cold hard proof is another, and it looks like a group of 12* self-professed "audiophiles" recently couldn't tell the difference between Monster 1000 speaker cables and plain old coat hangers. Yeah, coat hangers. The group was A/B-ing different cables, and unbeknownst to them, the engineer running the test swapped out a set of cables for coat hangers with soldered-on speaker connections. Not a single one was then able to tell the difference between the Monster Cable and the hangers, and all agreed that the hangers sounded excellent. No wonder Monster has to rig HD displays. Still, we bet people still fall for the hype -- oh hey, if you're looking for the ultimate in sound, we've got half a meter of oxygen-free, triple-wrapped double-insulated Sonically Shielded AmpliSized Egyptian Llama cable here that we'll part ways with for just a couple grand.[wonder how they'd sound in my system?]
*A whopping 12 people have selflessly determined, unilaterally, that the whole, high-end wire concept is bogus! I can now sleep at night.
BUT! It gets better!
Dear audiophile;
In response to When is good enough, enough?, (referring to hi-fi loud speakers) I think you missed the point after reading my epistle ...but then again, maybe that's what I get for assuming readers will "read between the lines".
A speaker is only good enough when it can duplicate the original sound it is duplicating with such a high level of accuracy that no measurement device, including the human ear/brain, can detect any difference between the original sound and the speaker's duplication of the same sound. Of course this is impossible with today's technology. Because of the fact the original sound must, in some manner, be converted to electrons which race down wires at the speed of light, which are resisted and capacitated [WHAT????] which will always cause a difference between the original and replicated sound. [Whew! It's only wire that makes the difference] Therefore, I ask the question, why strive for perfect replication if it is not do-able? [Save the 50 grand! Get a boombox] Further, since it is not currently do-able, why should anyone labor over the concern of how accurate or "good" their speakers are, or in this case, when is good, good enough? What matters is if the speaker SATISFIES its owner with the clear understanding that the owner is not hearing anything remotely true [bless the boombox and mp3] to the original sound recorded on the replicating media.
A speaker is not a music reproducer because it cannot accurately reproduce the original sound of the music it is attempting to replicate.[Now there's a major news flash!] All a speaker can do is take what is fed into it electronically and produce a "resemblance" of the original sound. Therefore, a speaker should not be called a speaker, it should be called a noise, sound or "musical instrument". [idiot buzzword alert!!!]
For the record, my first stereo speakers (noise makers) were Bose 901's [ well, at least he got THAT right!] (back in the 60's when they were the rage). From there I went to ESS Heil airmotion transformer A-1's, then the mighty corner Klipshhorns [spelling???] with center Belle Klipshorn, next came Theater Jensen A-5, then moving on to DQ-10-A's, then to Electrovoice 10-B's, then Martin Logan SL-3's and now a custom-built $50,000.00 speaker system [woefully overpriced noise makers from the description below!] designed and built by Dennis Dean, Ph.D., an acoustical/audio engineer [let's see the credentials] who fortunately happens to be my brother. [more like UNfortunately]
Now let me tell you something about my home theater. [NO, please!] My speakers (musical instruments) feature Scanspeak's slit-cone midrange Revlator drivers and matched silk dome tweeters (their best and most expensive drivers). The upper bass woofers are Daton Titanic III 10-inch drivers and the sub woofers are Daton Titanic III 15-inch woofers. The Fs is 19 Hz and in their enclosure go down to 16 Hz at 125 dbs [dB what?] measured at one-meter (they rock the house when they achieve room lock). [ROOM LOCK??? How about brain seizure?] These speakers are 4-way tower floor standers. The cabinets are 2-inch MDF, braced, properly dampened, and stuffed with a proprietary filler.[Fiber One?] The weight is in excess of 375 lbs each! [Hmmm, speaker performance defined by weight?] The center channel speaker uses the same tweeter and midrange driver as the left right towers. The center channel bass is channeled to the left-right tower woofers via the pre-pro (small speaker setting). The center channel also have two Revelator slit cone mid range drivers and the speaker is laid sideways on its own dedicated stand which places it dead center to the bottom of the movie screen. Cross over and phasing are set to eliminate lobing. [How do you "set" phasing?] The rear surround drivers use linium ribbons [last I heard they were Linaeum's] and 5-inch hexacone drivers with passive 24 db/Oct cross overs which are housed in a nonresonate aluminum enclosures. [ must be some space-age material that only he has access to] These quasi omnidirectional speakers are ideal for surround speakers. They are mounted 7 feet from the floor on the sides and rear of the theater seating area. They are set on the small speaker setting in the prepro, thus utilize the left and right front main speakers woofers for bass below 80 Hz. They, along with the center channel speaker are crossed over at THX's recommended 80 Hz point. The sub woofer consist of a custom built 450 pound enclosure, tune ported per computer analysis which sports two 18-inch drivers. It works down to 12 cycles (- 3 db point which is the limit to our measurement equipment). Its efficiency is 95 db at 1 meter, 1 watt in put. [95db efficiency???? How's that measured?] The drivers are made by Focal (Jm Labs) in France. All speakers are padded to a 90 db output at one meter. [does it matter if it's an old blanket or a pillow?] All speakers are electronically crossed over and triampliefied [tri what? ]with Anthem amplifiers @ 200 watts per speaker (each speaker has its own dedicated amplifier)! [wow, never heard of such a thing!]
My home theater pre-pro is a RDC-7 Integra Research (latest model with all upgrades). My DVD-CD player is Sony's flagship NS999ES DVD/CD/SACD player. Inter connects are Monster M-1000's wires. Speaker cables are good old fashioned 14 gauge Belden, oxygen free copper wire for the tweeters and midrange drivers and 12 gauge for the woofers and subwoofers (more about that later). My video consist of an 84-inch Stewart Grayhawk electric retractable screen. The overhead-front projector is a Sony Hi-Def LCD Cineza (the only dront projector I have ever viewed that projects a picture which looks good when an end table lamp is turned on in the room). [thank god for his visual expertise] I use Monster's line conditioner powered by a TripLite power converter transformer set up. All AC lines are dedicated 20 amp and grounded with a 3-foot copper stake in the ground. TV reception is DSS satellite. All Inter connects are 2 meters or less in length. Speaker wires are 18-ft. or less. My room is 12-feet high, 18.5 feet wide X 23.5 feet long and semi open to a hall, foyer and dining area (which make wonderful bass traps). This, mathmatically, [ alright!, now for the matthh] causes a 34 Hz, 45 Hz and 72 Hz 5 db suckout, a mild 3 db suckout at 52 Hz and a huge 12db boost at 62 Hz and a 4 db boost at 80 Hz. This is corrected with an Audio control 1/6 octave bass equilizer [ever used an equalizer] (set with calibrated mic and meter), plus judicious phase adjustment to the sub woofers. [wonder where he gets his jude from] The bass frequency measurement while in the main seating area of the room (14-feet from the center of the screen) is + 2db, - 1.5 db from 120 Hz to 18 Hz. The entire system from 20 Hz to 11K Hz. (the limit to my hearing) is + or - 2.5 db @ 4.5 meters from the center speaker, while seated as measured on an HP real time spectrum analyzer. [ Whoa! Hold on there, ace. A -5,-5,-5,-3,+12 and a +4 db variation yields a net response of + or - 2.5db?????] Treatment consists of hung decorator rugs on the back walls, large back wall book case stuffed with books and nic-nacks, an acoustical fluffed (popcorn) ceiling, a 9 X 12-ft. area rug, and very soft, absorbant, dual pleat blinds which may be dropped down on the side walls exactly where the first sound wave launch hits the wall. [ how do you count that?] Speakers are properly placed by comuter and sound meter analysis. [That I'd like to see!]
One last thing regarding your comment on replication and judging the ability of componants to bring you nearest the original sound (my words, not yours). I'm so sorry, [ Sigh!, the sadness] but I do not buy into 90% of the hype brought to us audiophiles by the commercial sector of our hobby and the home entertainment industry at large. My brother, an audio engineering whiz kid [whizzing in his pants, maybe] has proven to me what is real and what is not. Let me rehearse with you an example of how he does this.[OK, everybody, take your places]
We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. We took my "old" Martin Logan SL-3 (not a bad speaker for accurate noise making) [what kind of noise?] and hooked them up with Monster 1000 speaker cables (decent cables according to the audio press). We also rigged up 14 gauge, oxygen free Belden stranded copper wire with a simple PVC jacket. Both were 2 meters long. They were connected to an ABX switch box allowing blind fold testing. [Is there unfolded blind testing?] Volume levels were set at 75 Db [that's a pretty low listening level for the ambient space as described] at 1000K Hz. [I don't think even an animal could hear that] A high quality recording [determined how?] of smooth, trio, easy listening jazz was played (Piano, drums, bass). None of us had heard this group or CD before, therefore eliminating biases. The music was played. Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them). This was done 7 times in a row! [ WOW!] Keeping us blind folded, my brother switched out the Belden wire (are you ready for this) with simple coat hanger wire! Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies [when did the other 7 show up], prior to the ABX blind test, he took apart four coat hangers, reconnectd them and twisted them into a pair of speaker cables. Connections were soldered. He stashed them in a closet within the testing room so we were not privy to what he was up to. This made for a pair of 2 meter cables, the exact length of the other wires. The test was conducted. After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use. Needless to say, after the blind folds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right [ thank heaven for the whiz kid] ...most [that's quite a bit] of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype [really?]. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is.
So you see, my friend, [oh, how patronizing] that is why I have joined up with this site (audioholics) [I think he should've joined boneheads anonymous] because their approach to good sound and education to acquire good sound and video is based on science [Tom Dolby blinded me with science], not hype, hypnotics [I don't recall anything about the involvement of a hypnotist], placebo effects [did the review buddies have to swallow something for the testing?] or wishful thinking.
My best regards;
Dr. Bob Dean [Doctor of what?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by savelife : 06-24-2004 at 07:17 PM.
THIS IS THE KIND OF STUPIDITY THAT GIVES HIGH-END AUDIO A BAD NAME.
by Nilay Patel, posted Mar 3rd 2008 at 8:03PM
We've always believed that the perceived quality boost that comes from using high-end cables is really just a trick of the mind (read: justifying the ridiculous cost of premium cables to yourself) -- if you've dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want. Still, our belief is one thing -- cold hard proof is another, and it looks like a group of 12* self-professed "audiophiles" recently couldn't tell the difference between Monster 1000 speaker cables and plain old coat hangers. Yeah, coat hangers. The group was A/B-ing different cables, and unbeknownst to them, the engineer running the test swapped out a set of cables for coat hangers with soldered-on speaker connections. Not a single one was then able to tell the difference between the Monster Cable and the hangers, and all agreed that the hangers sounded excellent. No wonder Monster has to rig HD displays. Still, we bet people still fall for the hype -- oh hey, if you're looking for the ultimate in sound, we've got half a meter of oxygen-free, triple-wrapped double-insulated Sonically Shielded AmpliSized Egyptian Llama cable here that we'll part ways with for just a couple grand.[wonder how they'd sound in my system?]
*A whopping 12 people have selflessly determined, unilaterally, that the whole, high-end wire concept is bogus! I can now sleep at night.
BUT! It gets better!
Dear audiophile;
In response to When is good enough, enough?, (referring to hi-fi loud speakers) I think you missed the point after reading my epistle ...but then again, maybe that's what I get for assuming readers will "read between the lines".
A speaker is only good enough when it can duplicate the original sound it is duplicating with such a high level of accuracy that no measurement device, including the human ear/brain, can detect any difference between the original sound and the speaker's duplication of the same sound. Of course this is impossible with today's technology. Because of the fact the original sound must, in some manner, be converted to electrons which race down wires at the speed of light, which are resisted and capacitated [WHAT????] which will always cause a difference between the original and replicated sound. [Whew! It's only wire that makes the difference] Therefore, I ask the question, why strive for perfect replication if it is not do-able? [Save the 50 grand! Get a boombox] Further, since it is not currently do-able, why should anyone labor over the concern of how accurate or "good" their speakers are, or in this case, when is good, good enough? What matters is if the speaker SATISFIES its owner with the clear understanding that the owner is not hearing anything remotely true [bless the boombox and mp3] to the original sound recorded on the replicating media.
A speaker is not a music reproducer because it cannot accurately reproduce the original sound of the music it is attempting to replicate.[Now there's a major news flash!] All a speaker can do is take what is fed into it electronically and produce a "resemblance" of the original sound. Therefore, a speaker should not be called a speaker, it should be called a noise, sound or "musical instrument". [idiot buzzword alert!!!]
For the record, my first stereo speakers (noise makers) were Bose 901's [ well, at least he got THAT right!] (back in the 60's when they were the rage). From there I went to ESS Heil airmotion transformer A-1's, then the mighty corner Klipshhorns [spelling???] with center Belle Klipshorn, next came Theater Jensen A-5, then moving on to DQ-10-A's, then to Electrovoice 10-B's, then Martin Logan SL-3's and now a custom-built $50,000.00 speaker system [woefully overpriced noise makers from the description below!] designed and built by Dennis Dean, Ph.D., an acoustical/audio engineer [let's see the credentials] who fortunately happens to be my brother. [more like UNfortunately]
Now let me tell you something about my home theater. [NO, please!] My speakers (musical instruments) feature Scanspeak's slit-cone midrange Revlator drivers and matched silk dome tweeters (their best and most expensive drivers). The upper bass woofers are Daton Titanic III 10-inch drivers and the sub woofers are Daton Titanic III 15-inch woofers. The Fs is 19 Hz and in their enclosure go down to 16 Hz at 125 dbs [dB what?] measured at one-meter (they rock the house when they achieve room lock). [ROOM LOCK??? How about brain seizure?] These speakers are 4-way tower floor standers. The cabinets are 2-inch MDF, braced, properly dampened, and stuffed with a proprietary filler.[Fiber One?] The weight is in excess of 375 lbs each! [Hmmm, speaker performance defined by weight?] The center channel speaker uses the same tweeter and midrange driver as the left right towers. The center channel bass is channeled to the left-right tower woofers via the pre-pro (small speaker setting). The center channel also have two Revelator slit cone mid range drivers and the speaker is laid sideways on its own dedicated stand which places it dead center to the bottom of the movie screen. Cross over and phasing are set to eliminate lobing. [How do you "set" phasing?] The rear surround drivers use linium ribbons [last I heard they were Linaeum's] and 5-inch hexacone drivers with passive 24 db/Oct cross overs which are housed in a nonresonate aluminum enclosures. [ must be some space-age material that only he has access to] These quasi omnidirectional speakers are ideal for surround speakers. They are mounted 7 feet from the floor on the sides and rear of the theater seating area. They are set on the small speaker setting in the prepro, thus utilize the left and right front main speakers woofers for bass below 80 Hz. They, along with the center channel speaker are crossed over at THX's recommended 80 Hz point. The sub woofer consist of a custom built 450 pound enclosure, tune ported per computer analysis which sports two 18-inch drivers. It works down to 12 cycles (- 3 db point which is the limit to our measurement equipment). Its efficiency is 95 db at 1 meter, 1 watt in put. [95db efficiency???? How's that measured?] The drivers are made by Focal (Jm Labs) in France. All speakers are padded to a 90 db output at one meter. [does it matter if it's an old blanket or a pillow?] All speakers are electronically crossed over and triampliefied [tri what? ]with Anthem amplifiers @ 200 watts per speaker (each speaker has its own dedicated amplifier)! [wow, never heard of such a thing!]
My home theater pre-pro is a RDC-7 Integra Research (latest model with all upgrades). My DVD-CD player is Sony's flagship NS999ES DVD/CD/SACD player. Inter connects are Monster M-1000's wires. Speaker cables are good old fashioned 14 gauge Belden, oxygen free copper wire for the tweeters and midrange drivers and 12 gauge for the woofers and subwoofers (more about that later). My video consist of an 84-inch Stewart Grayhawk electric retractable screen. The overhead-front projector is a Sony Hi-Def LCD Cineza (the only dront projector I have ever viewed that projects a picture which looks good when an end table lamp is turned on in the room). [thank god for his visual expertise] I use Monster's line conditioner powered by a TripLite power converter transformer set up. All AC lines are dedicated 20 amp and grounded with a 3-foot copper stake in the ground. TV reception is DSS satellite. All Inter connects are 2 meters or less in length. Speaker wires are 18-ft. or less. My room is 12-feet high, 18.5 feet wide X 23.5 feet long and semi open to a hall, foyer and dining area (which make wonderful bass traps). This, mathmatically, [ alright!, now for the matthh] causes a 34 Hz, 45 Hz and 72 Hz 5 db suckout, a mild 3 db suckout at 52 Hz and a huge 12db boost at 62 Hz and a 4 db boost at 80 Hz. This is corrected with an Audio control 1/6 octave bass equilizer [ever used an equalizer] (set with calibrated mic and meter), plus judicious phase adjustment to the sub woofers. [wonder where he gets his jude from] The bass frequency measurement while in the main seating area of the room (14-feet from the center of the screen) is + 2db, - 1.5 db from 120 Hz to 18 Hz. The entire system from 20 Hz to 11K Hz. (the limit to my hearing) is + or - 2.5 db @ 4.5 meters from the center speaker, while seated as measured on an HP real time spectrum analyzer. [ Whoa! Hold on there, ace. A -5,-5,-5,-3,+12 and a +4 db variation yields a net response of + or - 2.5db?????] Treatment consists of hung decorator rugs on the back walls, large back wall book case stuffed with books and nic-nacks, an acoustical fluffed (popcorn) ceiling, a 9 X 12-ft. area rug, and very soft, absorbant, dual pleat blinds which may be dropped down on the side walls exactly where the first sound wave launch hits the wall. [ how do you count that?] Speakers are properly placed by comuter and sound meter analysis. [That I'd like to see!]
One last thing regarding your comment on replication and judging the ability of componants to bring you nearest the original sound (my words, not yours). I'm so sorry, [ Sigh!, the sadness] but I do not buy into 90% of the hype brought to us audiophiles by the commercial sector of our hobby and the home entertainment industry at large. My brother, an audio engineering whiz kid [whizzing in his pants, maybe] has proven to me what is real and what is not. Let me rehearse with you an example of how he does this.[OK, everybody, take your places]
We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. We took my "old" Martin Logan SL-3 (not a bad speaker for accurate noise making) [what kind of noise?] and hooked them up with Monster 1000 speaker cables (decent cables according to the audio press). We also rigged up 14 gauge, oxygen free Belden stranded copper wire with a simple PVC jacket. Both were 2 meters long. They were connected to an ABX switch box allowing blind fold testing. [Is there unfolded blind testing?] Volume levels were set at 75 Db [that's a pretty low listening level for the ambient space as described] at 1000K Hz. [I don't think even an animal could hear that] A high quality recording [determined how?] of smooth, trio, easy listening jazz was played (Piano, drums, bass). None of us had heard this group or CD before, therefore eliminating biases. The music was played. Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them). This was done 7 times in a row! [ WOW!] Keeping us blind folded, my brother switched out the Belden wire (are you ready for this) with simple coat hanger wire! Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies [when did the other 7 show up], prior to the ABX blind test, he took apart four coat hangers, reconnectd them and twisted them into a pair of speaker cables. Connections were soldered. He stashed them in a closet within the testing room so we were not privy to what he was up to. This made for a pair of 2 meter cables, the exact length of the other wires. The test was conducted. After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use. Needless to say, after the blind folds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right [ thank heaven for the whiz kid] ...most [that's quite a bit] of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype [really?]. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is.
So you see, my friend, [oh, how patronizing] that is why I have joined up with this site (audioholics) [I think he should've joined boneheads anonymous] because their approach to good sound and education to acquire good sound and video is based on science [Tom Dolby blinded me with science], not hype, hypnotics [I don't recall anything about the involvement of a hypnotist], placebo effects [did the review buddies have to swallow something for the testing?] or wishful thinking.
My best regards;
Dr. Bob Dean [Doctor of what?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by savelife : 06-24-2004 at 07:17 PM.
THIS IS THE KIND OF STUPIDITY THAT GIVES HIGH-END AUDIO A BAD NAME.
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Richard
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What gives high end audio a bad name is high end audio... let me elaborate...
First and foremost, for most people this discussion is not relevant - use coat hangers, Monster or lamp zip cord for that matter.
The ability to hear differences in wire is directly related to how much clarity the system will provide. I have heard wire change it's sonic signature due to break in and also differences between wire. Sorry there Braden and Ara but in my experience such claims are legitimate.
About 10 years ago I set off on a personal journey to determine for myself what was real and what was hype. After 2 years of designing my own 2 channel preamp and modifying nearly every product in the chain I discovered the biggest problem with consumer audio is the total lack of standards and also discovered that they really don't want standards because it is the lack of standards that creates all the subtle differences between products along with cable and wiring. Wonder what I am talking about? Just start with impedance matching of signal level inputs and outputs along with interconnect impedance (skipping the lies about how audio is not affected by that)... most of these cable manufacturers have no idea what impedance their cable or connectors are (probably due to those same lies)! Just this alone makes it impossible for any one cable manufacturer to claim they have found the holy grail so in the end you need to choose the wire that enhances the individual products used in the system and your mileage is guaranteed to vary.
Highly accurate audio products could exist at affordable prices but with those kinds of standards it would be difficult for one company to out market / out hype the others, therefore the madness continues and there will always be something better down the road.
On the other hand it appears the public voted on whether or not they want HD audio - SACD and DVD-Audio are history.... May I-Tunes live forever!
First and foremost, for most people this discussion is not relevant - use coat hangers, Monster or lamp zip cord for that matter.
The ability to hear differences in wire is directly related to how much clarity the system will provide. I have heard wire change it's sonic signature due to break in and also differences between wire. Sorry there Braden and Ara but in my experience such claims are legitimate.
About 10 years ago I set off on a personal journey to determine for myself what was real and what was hype. After 2 years of designing my own 2 channel preamp and modifying nearly every product in the chain I discovered the biggest problem with consumer audio is the total lack of standards and also discovered that they really don't want standards because it is the lack of standards that creates all the subtle differences between products along with cable and wiring. Wonder what I am talking about? Just start with impedance matching of signal level inputs and outputs along with interconnect impedance (skipping the lies about how audio is not affected by that)... most of these cable manufacturers have no idea what impedance their cable or connectors are (probably due to those same lies)! Just this alone makes it impossible for any one cable manufacturer to claim they have found the holy grail so in the end you need to choose the wire that enhances the individual products used in the system and your mileage is guaranteed to vary.
Highly accurate audio products could exist at affordable prices but with those kinds of standards it would be difficult for one company to out market / out hype the others, therefore the madness continues and there will always be something better down the road.
On the other hand it appears the public voted on whether or not they want HD audio - SACD and DVD-Audio are history.... May I-Tunes live forever!