HDTV Forum

John,

I can't speak for every audiophile in the world, but the vast majority listen to their HiFi systems hoping to come as close as possible to reproducing live sound. Whether it be from a concert hall (talking about concert halls here John, not basketball courts where concerts are held) or the intimate setting of a nightclub. We want that singer/band/orchestra to be in our living room.


Mark

it will have to be developed for mobile use.

That is where SACD has the upper hand with the hybrid discs that can be used on any CD player.

This is where Sony has also really dropped the ball. Many of the releases are SACD only.

Right You are Richard,

In fact one of the big selling points when Sony introduced this format was that they could produce hybrid discs. With a few notable exceptions (like the early Stones catalog released by Abcko) most discs are not hybrid.

Unfortunately much of the general public is focusing on downloadable music these days. While I'll be the first to admit that it is great to have access to all those tunes, I'll also point out that the quality is terrible...but then again, most of the public really doesn't care.

Mark

The post about DVD-A or SACD being mobile reminded me that my Toshiba portable DVD player is DVD Audio compatible (2 channel only according to the manual).

It's not really walkman portable, but portable nonetheless. It would work for in the car, plane or outdoors at the park, etc.

I have yet to listen to it yet but now that I have read this thread I'm going to go get my Eagles disc and try it out.

Chuck G

Thanks, Richard, for initiating this topic. I'm sure it will elicite differing opinions, which I find informative and interesting, as long as people stay civil.

Question: I don't know what you mean when you say, regarding DVD-A:

It is a very difficult if not impossible product to use without a display of some sort

I've never had my TV on while listening to any DVD-A disk. They play the same way CDs do. A display is not needed at all.

still waiting for...a couple of SACD and DVD-Audio disc using different genres of music of the same content recorded and mastered in the original native format for a scientific and conclusive comparison.

I believe "Swing Live" is available in both SACD and DVD-A. It's the only one, that I know of. That doesn't meet all your wishes, but it's a start.

In many cases the same content played back over my Sony via CD actually sounded better in many areas.

I don't dispute there are many poor multi-channel mixes, but your example above may not be a valid comparison. It's hard to compare multi-channel with two-channel and claim one is inherently better, since you are dealing with different mixes.

removing the multichannel capability

That sounds totally artificial to me. You can't make any valid evaluation of a disc if you've changed the original format it was produced for. To me, that is like taking a stereo disk and playing it in mono.

sitting on stage with the musicians was not really the best vantage point even though many multichannel mixes might try to suggest otherwise.

I generally agree, though that could depend on many factors. Imagine if "Dark Side of the Moon" were originally recorded with multi-channel in mind, putting the listener in the middle of the mix! Anyway, muli-channel can provide sonic benefits by placing the listener in the audience, too.

The majority of what has been released started life as a 2 channel product

I completely agree that retrofitting older recordings to multi-channel is not the best use of the format. At the same time, most of that music was recorded on multiple tracks, so it isn't a matter of taking two tracks and making them multi-channel. So there is some hope there, though I agree that newer music recorded with multi-channel in mind should be superior, once the recording engineers learn how to deal with the new format.

I have listened to these albums for the last 30 years in stereo and therefore expect stereo

This shows the inherent prejudice many of us will have when first encountering multi-channel music. I believe this prejudice affects how we listen to new music, too. Have to be careful not to let that affect one's response to multi-channel music.

For either format to succeed, it will have to be developed for mobile use

I don't think this is what you were referring to, but I have heard that some high-end automotive sound systems are beginning to incorporate SACD and/or DVD-A.

Unfortunately much of the general public is focusing on downloadable music these days

This, to me, is the biggest hurdle facing DVD-A and SACD, as well as high-end stereo. A public that is satified with the sound of MP3 is not going to care about high-resolution formats.

Stosh

RF>It is a very difficult if not impossible product to use without a display of some sort

ST>I've never had my TV on while listening to any DVD-A disk. They play the same way CDs do. A display is not needed at all.

Yes you are correct for multichannel but not for stereo.

RF>In many cases the same content played back over my Sony via CD actually sounded better in many areas.

ST>I don't dispute there are many poor multi-channel mixes, but your example above may not be a valid comparison. It's hard to compare multi-channel with two-channel and claim one is inherently better, since you are dealing with different mixes.

Your point is correct but that is not what I said nor meant. We also have OAR for audio which means if it was produced for stereo then it should be played back in stereo and that is what my comment was based on. What can I say I am a purist. Technically there is no other way to perform this sort of test as you have pointed out.

RF>removing the multichannel capability

ST>That sounds totally artificial to me. You can't make any valid evaluation of a disc if you've changed the original format it was produced for. To me, that is like taking a stereo disk and playing it in mono.

But that is exactly what you are doing when you listen to an original stereo production in multi-channel.

RF>The majority of what has been released started life as a 2 channel product

ST>I completely agree that retrofitting older recordings to multi-channel is not the best use of the format. At the same time, most of that music was recorded on multiple tracks, so it isn't a matter of taking two tracks and making them multi-channel. So there is some hope there, though I agree that newer music recorded with multi-channel in mind should be superior, once the recording engineers learn how to deal with the new format.

So we agree.

RF>I have listened to these albums for the last
>30 years in stereo and therefore expect stereo

ST>This shows the inherent prejudice many of us will have when first encountering multi-channel music. I believe this prejudice affects how we listen to new music, too. Have to be careful not to let that affect one's response to multi-channel music.

Good point but keep in mind OAR. I do not have an issue with multi-channel. I look forward to hearing Beethovens 9th in a reference multi-channel system. I have heard it on my compromised system and I am intrigued but there are not enough multi-channel titles that put me in the acoustical environment to justify the expenditure. If I do it then I want 5 reference quality channels and no compromise.

Richard Fisher

The Toshiba SD9200 did receive a class-A rating for DVD-Audio. I had this piece and it do fairly well in testing at it's price point but I did have some reservations with the sound quality. The video was great to. I ultimately did not get it, wanted to, because at the time DVD-Audio titles were limited in availability and I also did not fully understand how DVD-Audio worked for stereo applications - I was in good company at the time.

One of the guys on the TIPS List has it and he loves it.

Richard F. Fisher

I agree with a few of the other folks here, that mobile applications will help with the expansion of either format, however I can't find anybody with a true drop-in player for either. I have been looking online and I have a friend who was at the CES that I'm waiting to hear back from. The only way I can do DVD-audio in my car is to get the Panasonic portable player, which I assume has a 12 volt power adapter, and the Alpine sound processor with a 5.1 amp. (Yes, I plan to add a center channel.)

I can't even find a SACD for mobile application.

*Has any body found an automotive DVDa or SACD in dash player???*

Grumpy Bob

A bit of a rant. It would appear that the DVD-Audio camp is lagging behind big time.

We have seen the Rolling Stones, Peter Gabriel and the Police catalogs released on SACD this quarter. Just between those we have 20 new titles and that doesn't include the other stuff released. Lest I forget, Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon was also just released and that can only mean the other albums are just around the corner. New DVD-Audio titles have been very few. Yes - Close to the Edge was supposed to be released a number of months ago - still no word. The most popular releases for this quarter, Fleetwood Mac - Say You Will, The Band - Music From the Big Pink, REM - Document. Three - that's it! While one could argue there were other notables none were of original albums nor mastered for 2 channel - the Silverline label (think cheese). We also are seeing DAD releases at 24/96 - another dumbing down of the DVD format. If anybody here has heard the handful of 24/192 stereo DVD-A out there this is not a good sign - love that 24/192!

Further, I just received the new Stereophile and on the cover is the new SACD player from Musical Fidelity using tubes. There are now about 8 statement SACD players on the market and about 2-3 for DVD-Audio.

DVD-Audio seems to slowly be progressing into "cheese" land with cheapo multichannel players while SACD continues to make real headway in the audiophile and general consumer market. I find this frustrating only because we have yet to hear the full potential of DVD-Audio and at this rate we may never. Certainly a bad situation for a format that claims sonic superiority over SACD.

It appears that DVD-A has taken the marketing course of the "lowest common denominator" with the cheesy players and cheesy Silverline releases. Keep it up boys and it will be dead! This also happens to lead into HDTV and the battle being fought by Dale Cripps to prevent this same cheesy thinking from getting a foothold in our new HiDef video world.

Richard F. Fisher

Richard thanks for your thoughts here on these two formats. DVD-Audio seems to have really slowed to a crawl but I also think there is so little coming SACD's way too. What has anyone heard as far as new SACD releases upcoming? I have heard of nothing of real interest. Besides the Stones and Pink FLoyd (not a police fan) there has been nothing exciting with SACD either. It seems that maybe 1 in every 1000 new albums also come out with an SACD or DVD audio option to purchase. It was very refreshing to at least see Fleetwood Mac putting their new album out on DVD Audio. I think right now this is not a beta vs vhs as both formats are seriously failing to add much to their catalogs. I own somewhere in teh range of 50 and only because I like to hear all the good and bad that they put out on DVD audio and SACD. Let's hope soon that new albums come out in the hybrid format more often or offer DVD audio as an alternative to the CD as Fleetwood Mac did....

KeithMathews